Reichenbach Portrait

[Jeff Wilson]

If people want this stuff to get out there in lieu of any official DVD release, then it needs to be torrented. Once people start seeding the files and spreading them around, anyone will be able to get them. Putting this stuff on sites like Youtube is asking to get it taken down.

[ToddBaesen]

Too bad all that rare Welles's material only had a very brief one week run on You Tube.

Seems like the story of Welles' career... OTHELLO opened and played for a week or two at The Paris Theater in New York and was only rarely seen in America until the Castle Hill restoration... Same for FALSTAFF, which opened and closed at The Little Carnegie Theater inside of a month.

Well, at least some of us got to see a lot of the rare unseen television material. I was especially struck by the amount of different sources of Welles interviews that surfaced after his death, none of which I'd ever seen before. I was also quite impressed with the "Andalusian Itinerary" episode of IN THE LAND OF DON QUIXOTE, perhaps because I had always heard it was not very good.

Now, since there's no info on Deconstructionist909, it appears there's no way to see about torrenting the files...

[abasak]

Yearh it sucks that he's gone and the material with him.

I don't know if it's bad etiquette, to tell you guys this, but I wrote him a message thanking him on youtube, and afterward asked him if had more, and he replied that he had some more to upload. So that's even worse news. He actually said, that he would wait for his Beatrice-phobia to go away before he uploaded more. Seems like something made him completely vanish.

My guess though is that he's reading these boards, he told me he had read Roger Ryan's request to get the Amberson's ending off youtube. So maybe a torrent is still in the realm of opportunity.

How I just regret not to have ripped the youtube content.

[ToddBaesen]

Abasak:

Thanks for that info... I'd say that providing the info was certainly very good etiquette! Especially if we know Decon909 had more rare material to provide that we didn't get to see! The question is, were his videos shut down by You Tube, or did he remove them himself?

Obviously, after he read Roger's dislike about seeing his re-cut version of AMBERSONS on You Tube he quickly removed it. But the wholesale removal of everything else on his site indicates he was shut down by a complaint from a copyright holder. Possibly more than one. Which brings up the question, of whether it should have been "promoted" on the main page here, which could have possibly brought it to the attention of the various rights holders.

But if that is the case, you have to wonder what the Fuck (excuse my French) these copyright holders are waiting for? A million dollar deal to release THE ORSON WELLES SHOW or IN THE LAND OF DON QUIXOTE on DVD? Obviously that isn't going to happen. However, since they are both televisions shows that have rarely or never been seen in America, I think their DVD release would greatly increase Welles artistic reputation, as a artistic master in yet another medium, that of Television!

[Jay Jennings]

Deconstructionist909, what happened? We hardly knew ye.

[jbrooks]

Yeah, there's still lots of other copyrighted Welles work on Youtube -- including Chimes at Midnight, Fountain of Youth, The Lost Films of Orson Welles, and the Arena interview program.

[Tony]

Todd: you wrote:

"I think their DVD release would greatly increase Welles artistic reputation, as a artistic master in yet another medium, that of Television!"

I liked "In the Land of Don Quixote" very much so I agree with you there, but I personally doubt whether the release of "The Orson Welles Show" would "greatly increase Welles's artisitic vision" as I think it's quite possibly the worst thing I've ever seen him direct: stiff, over-scripted and pretentious, and with Burt Reynolds and the Muppets? I suspect watching this show for many would only confirm suspicion that he went downhill in his later years. This is one I wich they HAD lost!

The rest of the stuff was amazing, especially the "Wind" excerpt. Maybe the guy got unecessarily spooked by Roger!? You know when Wellesnet comes down on you, there's gonna be trouble...

[Alan Brody]

I personally doubt whether the release of "The Orson Welles Show" would "greatly increase Welles's artisitic vision" as I think it's quite possibly the worst thing I've ever seen him direct: stiff, over-scripted and pretentious, and with Burt Reynolds and the Muppets? I suspect watching this show for many would only confirm suspicion that he went downhill in his later years. This is one I wich they HAD lost!

Good point, Tony. We don't have Don Quixote, TOSOTW, The Deep or Merchant of Venice, but unfortunately we do have Welles's rather pathetic attempt to launch a career as a talk show host, plus all those bewilderingly phony "Magic Tricks" on film. Would that Welles's priorities had been a little less whimsical in his later years. Those encountering Welles on Youtube will find a real mixed bag in terms of quality.

[The Night Man]

Sad as it is that they're now gone, decon909's Youtube postings have revealed some excellent potential DVD extras. The Reichenbach documentary in particular seems like a natural companion piece for The Immortal Story if Criterion ever gets around to releasing it.

[ToddBaesen]

Tony:

You make an excellent point, however, I still don't agree with it, because I was absolutely enchanted with THE ORSON WELLES SHOW. So as Christopher Lee once told me, let us "agree to disagree."

Frankly, before I saw THE ORSON WELLES SHOW I also didn't think it would be very good. I recently spoke with Frank Oz and asked him about what he thought about working with Welles. To my great surprise, Mr. Oz was the first person I've ever talked to about Orson Welles who did not indicate to me he thought Welles work as a director was inspired.

He told me he thought the show was "pedestrian" and when I asked him if he learned anything from Welles, as a director, he seemed to think the question was absurd, saying, "you can't direct a TV show like that."

In any case, it appears that my opinion about THE ORSON WELLES SHOW is very much in the minority. Besides your own opinion, the Wellesnet posts above, along with Jeff Wilson's review of the show, really don't have much good to say about THE ORSON WELLES SHOW, either!

Also, my own friend here in San Francisco, Glenn Anders told me he also thought that the THE ORSON WELLES SHOW was not very good.

Since I know all of these people know Welles' work quite well, I'm wondering what other Welles experts, who read the board may think?

Specifically, any Welles scholars like Joe McBride, Jonathan Rosenbaum, Francois Thomas and Stefan want to help me here? Isn't there anybody out there?

Seriously, do you think THE ORSON WELLES SHOW is really, really that bad, and would be such a drag on Welles reputation if it should be widely seen?

Of course, the key question here is "seen." I mean, I myself until last week had never even seen it! Perhaps back in 1978 if the show had aired on national TV most people would indeed, think is was bad. But the question is, shouldn't it have at least been seen?

And let's look at what Welles was obviously attempting to do. That is, make a TV talk show that would appeal NOT to the audience of under 5 million people that would see a movie, but to a mass TV audience. So who does Welles get for his show? A very big movie star (at the time) Burt Reynolds. The very family friendly and very popular Muppets. And a beautiful lady, Ms. Angie Dickinson. Clearly Welles was dumbing himself down as much as he could. This wasn't about being an "intellectual" TV show, but about appealing to a mass public of 30 million people or more.

The problem it appears, is Welles couldn't dumb himself down to that low level that would appeal to a mass public. It certainly didn't appeal to any of the major networks!

Now, I happen to like the show, and think it was a brilliant piece of television work. All the more so, since the main subject, Burt Reynolds is not exactly a big star anymore. But I doubt he's ever given a more intelligent interview. Just look at his comments on the recent DVD of DELIVERANCE. Clearly Welles coached him and fed him his "answers." I think it was also far and away better than 100 % of the crap that is seen on TV talk shows, or TV in general these days.

So, I think you must consider what Welles intentions were. He wasn't making a movie. He was making a TV talk show, back in 1978. In that context, the show has to be considered BRILLIANT! Honestly, watch whatever crap is on TV tonight, and then tell me you would rather watch that for 90 minutes then THE ORSON WELLES SHOW! What's even more appalling, is that if in 1978 the show had been given a green light, we might have had Orson Welles doing many additional nights of late night TV, just as he used to do in those happy bygone days when he had a radio show every week, until he left America in 1948!

Now, obviously, if Welles did have a late night TV show in 1978, they wouldn't all be great, but I'm sure that they would always be of some interest, especially when you compare them to what you can watch on late night TV currently.

If nothing else, nobody can say Welles was not a good conversationalist, and if his TV pilot was approved, it's certain he would have brought many interesting guests onto his show. Just imagine - Welles might have talked to: Gore Vidal, Charlton Heston, Frank Sinatra, Tennessee Williams, Eartha Kitt, Peter Bogdanovich, Cab Calloway, Arthur Miller, Jimmy Carter, Mike Nichols, Steven Spielberg, Marlene Dietrich, etc., etc. And of course, this was right before Ronald Reagan was elected president!

The major point I'm trying to make is that most critics thought MR. ARKADIN and TOUCH OF EVIL were very bad when they came out. So do you think we should suppress a Welles project because it may not be popular or even if you think it is bad?

Aye, there's the rub. In my view, whatever Welles directed and finished should indeed be brought out into the cold light of critical view. Maybe THE ORSON WELLES SHOW would have been totally crucified by the critics, but there's no doubt it should have at least been seen!

On the other hand, many make the point that Jess Franco's version of DON QUIXOTE should be shown, just because it contains Welles footage. Of course, I'd like to see all that Welles footage myself, but when it has been taken so much out of context, and re-ordered, re-cut, re-scored, re-dubbed, and so generally screwed-up, I'm afraid I could never agree to that idea.

To sum up:

I'd take the worse version of any Orson Welles project he had control over you can think of (such at THE ORSON WELLES SHOW) rather than a however well-intentioned disaster such as Jess Franco's version of DON QUIXOTE.

[mido505]

Todd:

Somewhat off topic, but have you met Christopher Lee? What did you "agree to disagree" about? Did you discuss Welles and Moby Dick?

[Roger Ryan]

As an achievement, I guess THE ORSON WELLES SHOW was a work of art, but the networks were faced with a show that just wouldn't play.

Seriously, I think Welles' talk show pilot is fascinating but not in the way Welles probably intended. The carefully-scripted and planned "spontaneity" just doesn't work. It feels more fake than F FOR FAKE which is the very opposite of what good talk/variety shows try to convey. All those other examples of Welles on television, especially his appearances on talk shows, feel very spontaneous and "in the moment", but THE ORSON WELLES SHOW pilot is shot like a film and is essentially "dead" as Welles himself once referred to the movie screen as being.

With its odd, almost grotesque camera compositions and staged audience cutaways, the pilot comes off as a strange Kaufmanesque (as in "Andy") deconstruction of a typical talk/variety show. The surreality of a laugh track ("Those are dead people laughing" Jim Carrey as Andy Kaufman complains in the biopic MAN ON THE MOON) has nothing on the weirdness Welles serves up throughout his little show. I laughed out loud when one of the "random audience members" who inspects the revolver for Welles' big magic illusion turns out to be Todd School mentor Roger Hill! Of course, practically no one but us obsessives would know this; still, it is indicative of the level of artifice present that works against the illusion of immediacy that Welles appears to be aiming for. Welles' version of a "live" talk/variety show is about as true to life as his courtroom scene in THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI.

Like I said earlier, I still find it fascinating to watch Welles go out of his way to shoot his talk show like a movie, but I understand how the networks would not have been interested. As part of the Welles canon, I think it should be available to view, but considering how many TV pilots never reach the air, I don't think this is one that deserved special treatment.

[Tony]

I don't have too much to add to what's been said, but I would like too put forth the unappealing proposition that the Orson Welles Show may reveal something that I don't want to admit, but which a friend of mine swears is obvious in everything Welles did after Chimes: that is a fatal self-consciousness which paralyzed his work, which virtually condemned all his work post Chimes as DOA. Sometimes I subscribe to this and sometimes I don't. There's the obvious B&W/colour demarcation, but there may be something more: perhaps the hardening of the arteries evidenced in TOWS is only more obvious than the same phenomenon present in TOSOTW, FFF, the scripts/excerpts for Dreamers and BBR. Perhaps Welles really did lose it, and this is only really apparent when he's out of his natural element, i.e. movies. When I see TOWS (sorry Todd ) it makes me cringe and turn away: how could Welles be so out of touch- with human nature? How could his intuition, not to mention just plain common sense, be so off?

I recall the Cavett show: Welles is very spontaneous and genuine there: if he had just let it fly, then he might have really had his own talk show. But his attempt reveals, I believe, some fatal flaw in character, an inability to let go of control. I completely understand what Frank Oz meant: you've gotta let a talk show breath. What I see in TOWS scares me.

[Glenn Anders]

Because my friend, Todd Baesen, brought my name into this discussion of "The Orson Welles Show," let my clarify my criticism of that ill-fated pilot:

First of all, having other obligations, I did not watch more than a portion of Part One, intending to come back for the rest. As we know, Deconstruction909 was soon gone, taking his Welles treasure trove with him.

On that basis, as I told Todd, "The Orson Welles Show" did not strike me as great Televison, either for 1978 or today. "The Fountain of Youth" had been recognized in 1958 for its brilliance, and would be now, should it suddenly have been discovered.

Todd puts his finger on the problem when he remarks:

"What's even more appalling, is that if in 1978 the show had been given a green light, we might have had Orson Welles doing many additional nights of late night TV, just as he used to do in those happy bygone days when he had a radio show every week, until he left America in 1948!"

The difference is in the changing nature of time and celebrity. In 1948, Orson Welles was 33, a leading man in several media. He was "a star of Stage, Screen and Radio." Welles was still writing, directing, and acting in his own pictures, as well as those of the major studios. He was writing columns for the New York papers and political journals. He was a pioneer Civil Rights crusader among the remnants of the New Deal, and was the darling of a still viable progressive wing of the Democratic Party. He was married to Rita Hayworth! In other words, he was as newsworthy as any American of his time could be.

And in his primary artistic interests, he had applied several principles:

On Stage, Welles shortened classics, appealed to modern audiences, discovered superb new talent, adopted seldom used startling techniques of recent European stage craft, applied creative media such as Movies to his productions, combined works in unique forms, introduced American audiences to threats to our democracy such as fascism and the plight of blacks in the ghettoes of our great cities.

In Movies, he attempted to vary his offerings, both in subject matter and technique, utilizing the most innovative methods available. He was careful not to overly hog the spotlight, and most of all, he introduced unknown talent.

And in Radio, the medium through which most Americans had come to know him, Orson Welles was known as "a golden voice," in a time when such voices were appreciated, not parodied or used to suggest pomposity. Part of Welles' charm in Radio was that, when not in character, he liked to devote a few minutes, here and there, to casually praising his fellow performers.

By 1978, three decades had passed. Welles had gained a hundred pounds. He was married to a minor Italian contessa. His great medium of Radio had become a travesty. The Studio System which he had maligned and loved was gone. He was appearing in Italian "epics" or outre pictures of his own with bad sound tracks, which often suffered from the same editing butchery that his glory films had. And when he appeared on the American Stage, he literally tended to "break a leg." Business partners, far less ordinary Americans, did not realize (or care) that he could only remain in the United States for brief periods of time without his assets being impounded by the IRS, or other creditors.

Five minutes, or even fifteen, of the mellifluous Welles chatting on Radio had been one thing; but an hour of a 60-odd year-old Welles ponderously anchored in a chair throwing scripted questions about their identical red shirts at Burt Reynolds, already available many nights to teeming TV interviewers of the New Day, was something else. And of course, where once he had avoided (or good naturedly been "tricked") into reading radio commercials for exotic stuff like wine ["c-r-e-S-T-A, B-L-A-n-ca -- CRESTA . . . BLANCA: Cresta Blanca!"], he was now appearing on TV as a main spokesperson for Almaden and Gallo jug wines. Commercially, he had succeeded only too well.

Now, if he had shot "The Orson Welles Show" the way he did F FOR FAKE, only four years earlier, in 1974, he would still be years ahead of his TV competition . . . .

Glenn

[Tony]

Glenn: your last line blows my mind.