TCM documentary on independent filmmakers - Welles, Kubrick, Cassavetes on July 8

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Postby Roger Ryan » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:30 pm

Glenn Anders wrote:Roger: I think we are on the same page.

And the more I think about THE SHINING, I must conclude you are correct. Kubrick did not shoot a new ending. He excised the original ending. On the other hand, when Barry Nelson tells Shelly Duvall in the hospital that searchers have not found Jack "on the mountain," it seems at odds with the ending we have.

I like proper denouements, and so, for that and other reasons, I wish he had left THE SHINING be.

Here is my review of the picture, which is a bit of "investigative journalism":

http://www99.epinions.com/content_107498016388

Thank you for the clarification.

Glenn

Glenn - Of course you're right about it being Barry Nelson in the cut hospital scene; I've changed my post above to reflect that. I'm not certain how good that scene would have been; it strikes me as a bit too tidy. I can see where Kubrick was going with the reference to the searchers not finding Jack "on the mountain", however. The shot just prior to the hospital scene would have been of Jack frozen to death in the labyrinth. The audience would wonder in the subsequent scene why a search party wouldn't easily find him. Kubrick would then give them the answer in the film's last shot: Jack is no longer present in the present day because he has been completely absorbed into the hotel's sinister past.

Your epinions review is a great one and the mythology subtext given to the film really helps to raise it above the standard haunted house movie. I don't think Kubrick sold out the ending; he just doesn't offer the audience any comfort once Jack's madness is complete.
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Postby Glenn Anders » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:19 pm

Roger: My problem is that my research tends to be ephemeral. It was on a computer that my son still has, but has trashed.

My notion, from memory, is that the scene of Jack frozen was tacked on, or tacked in. Without it, the hospital scene, with Barry Nelson walking out and giving the kid back his ball would have been perfect. A bit Hitchcockian.

I think Kubrick ruined the picture.

But it's still a classic.

Glad you liked the review.

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Postby ToddBaesen » Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:42 am

Thanks Tony for those b.o. figures for Stanley Kubrick's films. What I wish we could do is show the figures for all of Orson Welle's films, as well, but of course, that info seems to be a bit harder to find, since none of Welles films ever made much money...

But in any case, this is another point in my heavily loaded arsenal against Mr. Thomson's shoddy research and off the cuff remarks, coming from someone who is supposedly a great authority on movies, and specifically about Orson Welles. (Not really, of course).

Here is Mr. Thomson's exact quote from EDGE OF OUTSIDE about Stanley Kubrick:

"...The immense nerve and daring to say, "Well, I think I'll leave American but I'll keep WB at the other end of the phone line and ask them to sign the checks." Which is more or less what Stanley Kubrick does in England for 30 years while he makes films... None of which does very well."

Now, for a film biographer, or historian, or whatever Mr. Thomson claims to be, (to me he's none of the above) - for him to make that kind of TOTALLY INACCURATE statement, is to me just completely ridiculous.

My god, a third grade student with internet access could find out that this statement is simply completely UNTRUE!

This is why I think many of Thomson's statements about Orson Welles can be called into serious doubt. Yet despite the many factual errors Thomson makes, OVER AND OVER AGAIN, his supporters seem to be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, simply because he is "such a good writer."

Well, frankly, I don't give two hoots in Hell if Mr. Thomson can write poetically about his subject or not. I'd just prefer it if he could get the facts straight about what he's supposedly writing about, especially if it's a biography.

Anyway, for Mr. Thomson to say that "None of Kubrick's films for WB did very well," to me, shows exactly why he is not to be trusted. He simply makes up whatever he wants to on the spot, and doesn't rely on facts to deter him. However, the facts are clear in this case: All of Kubrick's WB films not only made a profit, but did extremely well, (except for BARRY LYNDON) - and it should also be noted that in Tony's B.O. figures shown above for Kubrick's WB films, these are just for the US grosses, and do not include any foreign grosses or residual fees, which of course would make the figures even higher. But according to Mr. Thomson, WB kept writing the checks for Kubrick, even though "None of his films did very well!"

I'm sure Stanley Kubrick was certainly glad that Mr. Thomson wasn't around to decide if he would get that elusive 10% of his profits on such monster hits as THE SHINING and A CLOCKWORK ORANGE, since according to Thomson, they didn't do very well.

Now, going one step further on Kubrick, here's Thomson further idiotic remarks about the director:

"The hotspur of putting yourself above and beyond all other filmmakers, on such limited evidence, as a genius, is I think is something all young filmmakers have aspired to ever since..."

So according to David Thomson, Stanley Kubrick declared himself a genius to WB after such limited evidence as these third rate films, which apparently nobody went to see:
2001:A SPACE ODYSSEY, SPARTACUS, LOLITA, PATHS OF GLORY and DR. STRANGELOVE.

My God!! I think Mr. Thomson may have a point! Why would any studio want to sign a director like Stanley Kubrick to a contract as a genius, when he only had made these five shlocky films to show an evidence!

Of course, the reality is that each of the above mentioned films have all placed highly as mastepieces of cinematic art both with critics and the public throughout the world, so Thomson's statement can quite easily be discredited, but Thomson's mis-statement is even amplified further by the simple fact that Stanley Kubrick never declared himself a genius, just as Orson Welles never did.

But I'm sure Thomson may have made that claim about Orson Welles as well, just as he seems to think Stanley Kubrick did, although, frankly, I wouldln't know, because I'm proud to say I've never read his "disgraceful" biography on Orson Welles, nor any of his other books, simply because his numerous articles that I have read are so riddled with errors.
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Postby Roger Ryan » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:20 am

Glenn Anders wrote: My notion, from memory, is that the scene of Jack frozen was tacked on, or tacked in.

I know it's just a matter of opinion, but for me the shock cut to Jack frozen in the labyrinth is one of Kubrick's very best moments! By having this shot followed by the film's closing shot of the "July 4th, 1921" photograph, we are presented with one final duality: Jack "frozen" in time (in the photo) and Jack frozen in reality.

I, too, found Thomson's comments in "Edge Of Outside" regarding Kubrick to be way too dismissive. Obviously, no filmmaker working for a major studio would ever be able to maintain complete control and funding for 30 years just because he "demanded it". If Kubrick's films didn't do very well, he would have been back to shooting magazine photos or maybe making PBS documentaries.

As a film director, Welles was very lucky to have a great voice and acting presence. Without the ability to act in other's movies or to be a pitchman, he never would have stayed in the business long enough to do any of his own films after the mid-40s.
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Postby Glenn Anders » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:32 pm

Your opinion sounds entirely reasonable, Roger.

I just like a satisactory denouement, and the original ending sounds so perfect to me.

I agree with you assessment of Welles' difficulty in making his own films if he had not been in demand as an actor.

As for the rest, and the passions of Todd Baesen, I await another satisfactory denouement.

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Postby Tony » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:40 pm

Todd:

I agree with you 100% on Thomson, but you really should read Rosebud, just to make your blood truly boil: the suppositions he makes in virtually every paragraph he actually believes- now that's ego. After reading Rosebud, I heard him interviewed about Welles on the BBC, and was shocked again: he doesn't hate Welles, he LOVES him, and when speaking sounds reasonable and likable, not at all like the judgmmental moralizing egomaniacal author he is: it's as though he's 2 different people: now that's weird. It's also very obvious that long ago he decided that he need do no original research; rather, just rely on memory, feeling and intuition, and treat them as inarguable fact.

I'm willing to bet that if you cornered him, he would have an argument to show that through creative bookeeping, Kubrick's pictures actually only appeared to make money, and WB just kept him as a tiffany director; hey, hasn't that argument been made already here?
:p
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Postby Harvey Chartrand » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:14 am

That's what they used to say about Henry Miller, that he wasn't giving an accurate representation of his life but a romanticized version. Still, Miller's autobiographical romances made for great reading. Twenty-six years after his death, Miller is being acknowledged as a master, quite possibly the greatest American writer of the 20th century.

David Thomson is also a great writer and ROSEBUD is a marvelous book! Just because Thomson comes out with inconvenient truths about Welles, or prefers to capture the spirit of Welles' life, rather than the letter of it, doesn't make Thomson any less of a great writer or ROSEBUD any less readable. Welles himself was a great believer in telling the artistic lie that revealed the Big Truth.

I repeat: ROSEBUD is one of the very best books on Welles ever written. Even Orson would have liked it!
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Postby Tony » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:42 pm

Read Rosenbaum's "The Battle Over Orson Welles" for a clean division of the writings on Welles: Thompson's in the Kael/Higham/Carringer/Callow/Conrad camp who come down with moral judgements on Welles for his perceived personality flaws.: how dare they!

Welles would have verbally beaten the crap out Thompson if he were alive.
:angry:
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Postby Glenn Anders » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:17 pm

I sometimes think you need a scorecard to keep track of this discussion.

Briefly, an old wrestling buddy of mine sent me a copy of "The Battle over Orson Welles." As soon as I saw the name of the magazine in which it appeared, Cineaste, I realized that I had read the review, perhaps still had a copy of the journal somewhere in my files. Anyway, I remembered the dismay it left me with because of my respect for both Rosenbaum and David Thomson, whose Rosebud I'd just read at the time. Rosenbaum's critique was the first negative one I ever read.

Rosenbaum tears into all the Welles biographies he discusses, but Rosebud is the only one that he attacks as being lazy, inaccurate, foolish -- entirely despicable. I was saddened when I first read his piece, and I accepted the observations of a scholarly, careful, meticulous critic without question, even if they were at odds with some of my impressions.

I did not have my own copy of Rosebud back then, but I have since purchased a First Edition of the work. Today, I set about comparing Rosenbaum's five or six hundred words devoted to Rosebud with the book itself.

Imagine my shock -- well, actually, it is pretty hard to be shocked any more around here -- when I found three of half a dozen of Rosenbaum's allegations I checked to be incorrect, misapprehended, careless, lazy, inaccurate or taken out of context!

No doubt the Wellsian style, the desire to be an intimate story teller to someone close to him -- perhaps his publisher or editor, as Rosenbaum suggests, or his wife or alter ego, as I surmise -- leads Thomson into errors and omissions. But, that said, here are a few of Rosenbaum's problems:

For instance, he begins by attacking both Callow (whom he praises, at least, for his understanding of actors) and Thomson for neglecting Welles' contributions to Radio. Now, I would like a whole book devoted to the subject, but in fact, Thomson gives a total of over 60 citations, probably easily 75 pages out of a 460 page book to Welles and the Mercury Players in Radio. I wish there were more, but that looks fairly generous to me.

Then, to the subject of Thomson's neglect, Rosenbaum adds misrepresentation, when he tells us how John "Jack" Berry, an early Welles' discovery, had told him personally the great and warm affection he had for Welles. Perhaps so. Rosenbaum proceeds to accuse Thomson of poor scholarship, saying that in Rosebud, he had quoted a story Berry told in an interview, which Thomson presumbably, failing in his opinion use primary sources, caged from one Patrick Gilligan. The story was all about how Berry, a hungry street kid, had been hired to hold up scenery for a summer rehearsal of Too Much Johnson, in 1938. The upshot of the story was that Welles shamed Berry while feasting lavishly on a picnic lunch with the cast. It went diametrically opposed to how Rosenbaum knew Berry felt about Welles.

Hmmn . . . 1938 was a long time ago, and it may be silly to quibble about a sixty-eight year-old lunch, but still -- Shameful!

Then, I went to the book, and on page 91, I found Jack Berry telling the story, in his own words: "[Welles] said, 'You haven't been fed? You must take my seat.' He said, 'You must!' Of course, we went back and continued to hold up the fucking sets. Orson did that all the time -- operate, manipulate, function."

Well, Thomson may be misquoting Berry, or misquoting the interview he cribbed, but on the page, it does not sound as if, in this instance, Berry was showing any particular warm feelings for his mentor and eventual benefactor.

Let us not pick at straws. Here is nother instance, this time of Thomson's fatal tendency to commit factual error: Rosenbaum is touching on MR. ARKADIN, and he says that Thomson knows so little about his subject that he has Patricia Medina, the femme fatale of the picture married to Joseph Cotten in 1954 [when in actuality, the did not get married to until 1960]

What a stupid, bonehead thing for Thomson to say!

Ah, heck! Let's give Thomson a benefit of the doubt. Let's look at Rosebud.

On page 221, Thomson is lamenting that Welles is trying to make MR. ARKADIN without the resources of an RKO Studios, and so his players must appear against sets and backdrops which often lack the atmosphere his earlier films:

"Welles seldom seems to have been more than a distracted organizer to a series of cameos -- Mischa Aurer with his flea circus and magnifying glass; Michael Redgrave as a touchy junkshop owner; Katina Paxinou practicing jeweled and sardonic nostalgia with the aid of a photo album; Patricia Medina (Jo Cotten's wife) as Van Stratten's show girl lover . . . ."

I would not agree with all the characterizations, but an argument might be made for the criticism.

However, of all the factual errors that Rosenbaum specify in a book he says is full of them, he picks a three word interjection as one of his examples.

My take is that Thomson is only saying, "You know her, the lady Joseph Cotten is married to." Cotten was still alive in 1994, when Thomson would have been writing those words.

I know, that sounds like special pleading, but Rosenbaum is so terribly negative toward Thomson's work.

Well, what about a clincher. Let's do one more: Rosenbaum accuses Thomson of suggesting that Welles was close to being a racist -- this man who most people thought risked his career at a time before Civil Rights was fashionable. But Rosenbaum, the careful scholar (as opposed to the irresponsible Thomson) has chapter, verse and page number for the carefully hidden prejudice he has Thomson attribute to Welles:

"'There is sometimes a perilous proximity of old fashioned racial stereotype and yearning sympathy,' he [Thomson] notes on P.144."

Wow! Thomson not only deals in slander, but doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense here either. Raise high Thomson's gallows!

There is only one problem. I went to page 144, as Rosenbaum directs us. It happens to be a half page. The top half shows a picture of Welles and the beautiful Dolores Del Rio, in evening dress. The above quotation does not appear on page 144, nor on page 143, nor on page 145. The passage in question is all about Welles, Miss Del Rio, the writing of Citizen Kane, and a running argument between Thomson and his girlfriend, editor, whoever it is, about what or who CITIZEN KANE is about.

Race never comes up, so far as I can see.

Now the passage may be somewhere else in the book, and if so, then Jonathan Rosenbaum was . . . well, careless.

We should not condemn him for that mistake, should we?

Still it does undercut a whole load of Rosenbaum's hypocritcal assertions, valid or not, that David Thomson must be flayed and burned at the stake for his crimes of scholarship against the gullible reading public.

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Postby Tony » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:06 am

Glenn:
Thanks for taking the time to reply in some detail to my charges against Mr. Thomson (sp. correct); however, though I have not checked all your claims, I have checked the Berry story, and disagree with your take on it, which just goes to show the power and distortion of opinion, I guess (on both our sides). But I don't want to take you to task in a detailed way as Wellesians can read the article themselves in 2007 when Rosenbaum's collection of his Welles pieces comes out on U. of Cal. Press; at that time, anybody whose who's interested can read the article and compare it to their take on Thomson. I would however like to quote two brief excerpts of Rosenbaum's which I think act as a partial summary of his argument.

"The bad news about the recent Welles biographies by Callow and Thomson is that they pretend to an authoritativeness about the man's inner nature and motivations that I doubt will be accepted by anyone who knew Welles intimately- or even by most of those like myself or Brady who encountered him briefly and casually. Conscious or not, the agenda of both Callow and Thomson is to set certain ideological worries about Welles to rest rather than clarify what these worries represent, and exercising moral censure, puritannical or otherwise, is one of the most convenient methods available for carrying out this exercise. Another is the recourse of both biographers to a kind of spurious and, in Thomson's case, irresponsible word-spinning about Welles's inner life normally associated with fiction."

"Another major distinction that can be made to these lists is that the first seven works [Higham's 2 books, Carringer's 2 books, Kael, Thomson and, in a diluted form, Callow] all describe Welles as a deeply flawed, morally reprehensible human being and the last ten [ Bazin, Brady, Cobos, Cowie, Leaming, McBride, Naremore, Riambeau, Welles/Bogdanovich, and Berthome/Thomas] don't. Significantly, only one of the authors in the first list, Carringer, had any personal contact with Welles- unlike most of those in the second list, including Bazin, Brady, Cobos, Leaming, and McBride, and possibly others as well."

[*Tony note: to the second list I would add the books by Peter Noble and Maurice Bessy, both written by authors who knew Welles very well. Bessy's is interesting in that he discusses certain negative traits of Welles the man, but this does not negatively affect his assessment of the worth of the art: it is not used to make moral judements. As for the little BFI book on Kane by Laura Mulvey, Rosenbaum makes this comment: "Laura Mulvey's interesting ideological and psychological reading of Kane...manages to absent itself from both of the positions outlined above."]
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Postby Glenn Anders » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:08 pm

Tony: I think our problem is that I have an opinion, and you have an opinion. Opinions are only that. Rosenbaum supports your opinion -- or more to the point, you support his -- and he comes up with some facts that suggest Thomson is lazy, careless, irresponsible, inaccurate -- despicable, I think is a word he uses. I believe some of Rosenbaum's facts hold up, and I acknowledge that, but without going exhaustively through the third of he his review that deals with Thomson, I find at least three or four "facts" which turn out to be misrepresented, taken out of context, or flatly non-existent (in the place he says they are). In other words, in a relatively short review, which you quote here and on another thread, Rosenbaum, a man I admire generally, is guilty several times of what he accuses Thomson of doing specifically half a dozen times or so in 460 pages.

I'm afraid that won't do, Tony.

And I don't think it is good enough to take one of my findings, say you "disagree on [my] take," while ignoring the other problems.

Why don't we just say that Thomson has some strengths and some weaknesses as a biographer, and so long as opinions are backed up with valid facts, we both agree?

Quoting Rosenbaum's opinion again is no better than yours or mine. Saying that he trusts people who knew Welles more than people who did not will not work either. I've just shown that Berry, who knew Welles, off and on for forty years, is quoted as saying, ". . . Orson did that all the time -- operate, manipulate, function." Of course, a writer as careless as Thomson may be making that up or misquoting, but it does tend to counter Rosenbaum's reference to the quoted remark, that Berry only had the warmest affection for Welles.

I have Rosenbaum's collection, too, or did, and enjoyed reading it.

Why not say, as Welles would, that it is difficult to come up with one truth which will explain a man's life. People have different experiences with people. We may meet them in a good year or on a bad day. I don't think I'm nearly such a nice person as I was five years ago. I receive new shocks daily. I just had one, five minutes ago.

It happens.

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Postby Tony » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:45 pm

I recommend we wait for Rosenbaum's book; here's what Godard said about him:

"I think there is a very good film critic in the United States today, a successor of james Agee, and that is Jonathan Rosenbaum. He's one of the best; we don't have writers like him in France today. He's like Andre Bazin."

When we get all of Rosenbaum's major articles on Welles, from 1972 to present, we will see the development of a style as well as an aethetics foccussing on one subject, and it will be easier to discuss at that point, I think.

Until then... :;):
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Postby Glenn Anders » Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:47 am

I agree, Magnifico.

Until the setting sun.

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