Ambersons Reconstruction - ideas, ideas

[jaime marzol]

a lot of people here have come across with great suggestions on how to do this. the stuff i posted below has been from folks who have seen what we have done so far.

i post this in hopes of getting more ideas. please share any thoughts here.
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this idea from Harvey C, is brilliant:
Jaime, this is an approach that I am sure you've considered for your Ambersons reconstruction. Also, the narrative techniques used by Welles in his ground-breaking The Fountain of Youth (1956) could be adopted for the Ambersons reconstruction (lots of stills and stop motion, narrator's voice speaking through the characters, narrator inserting himself into scenes as actors fade into background, ...).

soon as i read this i e-mailed mteal, asked him to video tape himself, sitting on a chair, wearing a suit, reading the FOTA scene, and i would cut the stills and photographs into the reading. poor mteal didn't know what he was getting himself into. can't wait to hear his answer.

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this from an extremely knowledgable source in the Welles World, i'll respect his privacy and refer to him as 'E', wrote this:

The cut-out figures, while certainly fun to do, didn't go over with me at all. Monty Python meets the Ambersons... Using scenes from Meet Me at St. Louis or other "similar" movies also does not seem like a valid process to me

What this all boils down to, I guess, is a vote for much greater simplicity in the approach. Use every surviving original element as you find it, without manipulation:
a) storyboard drawings (although not original elements in the proper sense, so use only if no stills of the scene are available)
b) stills
c) the text of the cutting continuity (dialogue and description)
d) the length of the missing scenes as indicated in the cc (highly important in order to give a proper feeling for the rhythm of the original film)
e) Bernard Herrmann's music, as heard on the Preamble CD -- a must for your work.

The real trick is to find a way of combining the text (either scrolled or as inserts) with the stills and/or storyboards: Superimpose it in white lettering over the images? Or switching back and forth between images and
texts? You can only find out by trial and error.

...................

Brad (Masters Degree, teaching at University in Ulm, Germany)

The illustrations are good, although they should be far more detailed in the final version. I like the cutouts of the characters sliding back and forth, although it may be seen by some as a bit comical. It would be nice to have male and female actors reading the lines in the final version. You could indicate who is speaking by illuminating the faces/bodies of the characters, one after the other, as they exchange dialogue. If you're not clear what I mean by this, ask me, and I'll be more detailed.

I don't know if you need to keep the stage directions indicating movement or not; you may be able to simulate a good deal of this with animation. I think it takes away from the drama to include quite so much of it.

I assume you've seen the reconstructions of either Cukor's A Star is Born or Stroheim's Greed? They used still photos taken on the set, or blow-ups of scenes from missing footage, and did a lot of cross- cutting to faces, medium shots and close-ups, etc. to keep things a bit more dynamic in these sections (similar to what Ken Burns does in his documentaries when he uses still photos). You may want to consider this approach in some scenes, especially in static takes involving groups of people. The restored A Star is Born can be found in a lot of video stores, but I only saw Greed on TCM.

That's all I can say based on what you've sent thus far. I'll be delighted to view other pieces of it if you want to spend the money to mail them!

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there you have the reviews on what we have done from begining, till pre stable scene. please post any ideas.

harvey's idea is f-ing brilliant. a la fountain of youth, a guy sitting on a chair, with book, and maybe aided by one of those frame projectors, forgot what they are called, they project from a short strip of film one frame at a time.

please post any ideas or thoughts here.

a million thanks

jaime, and your future tuxedoed narrator, mteal.

[Harvey Chartrand]

Thanks for the kind words, Jaime, but all the credit should go to a fellah by the name of Orson Welles.

[mteal]

Thanks for printing the reviews, Jaime. It's unfortunate that these people had to see the project when it's still in such an embryonic stage, but let me respond to each one individually:

To Harvey (and Jaime): That's a very amusing idea about "hosting" the missing scenes a'la Fountain of Youth, but it's far too much of a liberty to take, since a host was not part of the original film. Besides, I can't stand monkey suits.

To E: Yes, having the missing scenes done with printed text from the Continuity Cut and with no voicing would be the purist way to go about it. But one of the problems Jaime and I found with that approach is that you're dealing with SO MUCH printed text. And the duetic relationship between music and dialogue is better conveyed when the dialogue is heard rather then read. The question of how much of a liberty to take comes into play here as well. Just as in a foreign movie, some people prefer subtitles, some prefer dubbing. For me, it depends on the movie.
As for the objection to Jaime's cut-out figures, again, I'm sure Jaime considers that also to still be in the trial and error stage. But I do think that Jaime's cut-out technique has much potential when it comes to approximating the actual shots of the missing scenes. Certainly much more then the storyboards, which Welles told Bogdanovich he didn't pay any attention to anyway.

To Brad: He's absolutely correct about getting male and female actors to voice the parts eventually. I consider it my job to ILLUSTRATE to those future actors what needs to be done and how, especially in those missing scenes involving music. As for the visuals, I'm sure purists would prefer that we use only existing stills and then use dynamic crosscutting, as in the GREED and STAR IS BORN restorations. Problem is, as Jaime has already noted, there simply are not enough of them to properly convey the rhythm of the missing scenes.

[jaime marzol]

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they did see it at a very embryonic stage. my fault. the stuff is so time consuming to do that i was fishing for opinions on what was done so far, so that when i sat down and burned my entire day, i would have a better idea what was the keeper method, and what to avoid. however, what it actually led to was me hearing stuff that made me feel like trashing the whole project.

it isn't really like there are a lot of ways to go with this and we are trying to decide which way to go. there are a few stills, a bunch of story boards, and that's it.

i like the idea of the fountain of youth approach. i don't see it any more distracting, or unpure than using those awfull RKO storyboards. welles used to host stuff from the movieola. in our advanced age it could be hosted from the digital editing box! but that would leave out the elegant host wearing a tux. a guy wearing a tux, hosting the ambersons from an editing box would look ridiculous.

i guess when harvey mentioned fountain of youth what came to my mind right away was welles. the class, and elegance he brought to that show. i don't suppose we could get some one famous, with a lot of class, and elegance to bring his own tux and work for free.

if some one famous, with a lot of class and elegance, and has his own tux reads this, please contact us.

[Harvey Chartrand]

Jaime and MTeal,
Please do not get discouraged.
The blue-sky concept would be to have an investor help you out with this reconstruction project (whether A&E, Turner Classic Movies, MOMA). That way, you can afford to get someone like Kenneth Branagh to host/narrate and bridge the gaps between scenes. Too bad about the paucity of still photos from the Ambersons shoot. That means using a mix of storyboards, whatever stills are available, an on-air host and professional actors recording the dialogue from cut scenes. I don't think Godard's 'Scene Missing' approach would work, do you?
I would say your best (and indeed unavoidable) option is a grab bag approach meshing narrative techniques used by Welles in The Fountain of Youth and the documentary approach favored by Bill Krohn and Myron Meisel in It's All True (1993). If truth be told, I much preferred the first half of that film (the history of It's All True) to the second (rather turgid Four Men in a Boat sequence).

[jaime marzol]

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nah, not getting discouraged, trying to figure out ways of making storyboards look interesting.

maybe scrapping all pictures and story boards and getting an artist to draw the missing scenes. one voice, one look for the visuals, certainly would improve the form.

slim chance of getting branagh, but maybe we could get some really famous guy that does not get a lot of work, and would bring his own tux, like frank sinatra jr.? hey, the sopranos had the good taste to put him in a card game!

[Harvey Chartrand]

How about Vince Vaughn?
Or Donald Spoto?
Alec Baldwin?
Hell, I'll do it for free! But somebody has to spring for the tux rental.

[mteal]

Harvey,
As Jaime said, we're not discouraged at all, and all of the opinions we received were welcome, even the negative ones. There are many different ways that this project can be done, and we can try them all. We're under no time constraint, and the project doesn't really cost anything except time.
I did my first Ambersons restoration about 15 years ago (it was trash because it was poorly researched). I did another one in 1995 and a third one in 1999, each time after getting more knowledge of the film, which resulted in smoother continuity and more accuracy. This latest 2002 edition is by far the best, mainly because of Jaime's input, computer skills and enthusiasm.
You're right, however, about needing money to do a fully worthwhile restoration that does some justice to the original film. If, by some miracle, we are able to attract a large investor, I think the money would be better spent on quality animation and sound rather then on a celebrity host. But all options are still wide open.

[Harvey Chartrand]

I couldn't agree with you more.
Ideally, reproducing every missing frame with a computer-generated facsimile is the way to go.
"Purists" might object, but ersatz Welles would be acceptable to me, in this case.
The 106-minute Final Fantasy cost $137 million and still hasn't broken even. How much would it cost to reproduce the missing 45 minutes of Ambersons footage? A hefty sum, I would expect.
Welles was never big box office, so a huge outlay of drachmas for such a specialized project is about as likely to happen as the speedy release of The Other Side of the Wind.

[mteal]

I'm glad you mentioned Final Fantasy which I was fascinated by, even if it was just routine sci-fi blather. That film did show how realistic computer animation can be when it comes to depicting human features and expression. I haven't seen Simone with Al Pacino but I've heard there's something similar going on there.

Could this technique be used for Ambersons? Sure, why not? I wonder, though if a more classical animation technique, perhaps based on the original sketches wouldn't be more effective and much less costly.

Concerning the proposed TOSOTW restoration: No matter how many explanatory notes and instructions Welles left behind, I find myself wondering how much a Kodar/Graver/Bogdanovich assembly of Wind should and could be considered "a film by Orson Welles". Not to take Beatrice's side or anything, but just like our Ambersons restoration, we're back to the question of interpretation. I do remember a post on the old Welles board made by an alleged Welles insider who claimed to be part of the TOSOTW project. He said the material was too fragmentary to be edited by anyone other then Welles himself and that it should be made into a documentary instead. Of course, on the old board it was impossible to tell whether any post was genuine or not.

[Fredric]

As I read these messages, I find something compelling, a side-project, so to speak. Harvey sparked this with a throwaway comment:

1. Put the exiting footage in the correct order.
2. Put the right soundtrack in, etc.
3. Remove all non-Welles footage, the ending, etc.
4. Merely put a "scene missing" card that shows for a few seconds in every place where a scene was cut.

The effect should be a slow buildup of scene missing frames until there are nothing but scene missing frames, and then finally OW's voiceover credits. This would profoundly show how badly the film was mutilated, how "incomplete" it is, and also become a metaphor for the automible (the editors, RKO) squashing the old way of life (Welles' film).

Quite a statement, if you ask me.

[Obssessed_with_Orson]

Fredric:

great post you got up there. as if your saying, "just put it back together the way it was meant to be"

that statement in the vanity fair article, or wherever you may have seen it stated, by orson welles is good.

when mr. higham got him to watch it, and orson hit the stop button 20 minutes before it was over. stated "from then on, it's their bullshit"

bye now!

p.s. no harvey. noone's getting discouraged. just to many choices to choose from. decisions to be made. ideas to use. etc.

[jaime marzol]

fredric, that's terrific. in a way that is already in on the disc, but i had not thought about the cards. putting the cards in is a great idea. the dvd GUI has 4 selections:

a) rearanged footage with no graphic segments (but now with added cards)

b) rearamged footage with graphic reconstrution.

c) rearanged footage, graphic reconstruction, commentary track.

d) photos, interviews, correspondence (i have the telegrams that went back and forth between welles and rko while welles was in rio. those would scroll, with captures of the scenes they are discussing fading in and out.

the cards is a great idea.

i also think a static graph that represents each scene with a capture, and number, numbered in the order if the continuity, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7...etc. then a second static graph with the scenes rearanged in the order of the release version, the numbers would read, 1,2,3,6,5,4,7.... etc. that would illustrate how incredibly jumbled up scenes are.

i have numbered folders in the order of the continuity on drive D, and to capture the scenes to the folders in the order of the continuity, i'm having to skip all over the disc. i remember last week when i started working from the stable on, i was aghast at the amount of skipping i had to do to capture in the continuity order. that's when i thought about the static graph.

[dm olson]

Now, something completely crazy, but...
I was watching Being John Malkovich tonight, rolling front and backwards on Cusack's fine puppetry (?) skills, then IT came to me, like most of my dumb ideas:
mix in your drawings and voiceovers with some shots of people's shadows, the supposed shapes of Minafer and 'silly old duck' or whoever, then shift in some short quick shots of marionettes acting out small pieces of the action!? The blend may not be a total distraction if melded together like a frothy bohemian dream where Gerry Anderson meets Orson Welles!
Well, I did say it even sounded completely crazy to me...

[jaime marzol]

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i've seen that before, like they use in recreations om E Entertainment, or A&E, where they show some figures from the shoulders down doing what the narrator is recounting.

that would probably work too.