Official OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND Thread - All things OSotW he

[Vidamonte]

I was disappointed to hear that they are making a documentary and right away suggested that if it is going to be released on DVD, that they would include some sort of rough cut according to the script as an extra, but Oja said it is not her decision anymore ( after the deal).

I have same kind of hopes as Michael O'Hara:

I was hoping for the film itself. I thought it was in a near enough to finished state that such a thing could be attempted. Perhaps they will bookend the film with documentary but let the vintage material run uninterrupted in the middle. Surely they can show us the full 40 odd minutes of footage edited by Orson's own hand

[Sir Bygber Brown]

Sounds closer to Lost in La Mancha than Orson Welles' Don Quixote.

Still, exciting times indeed.

I look forward to having a "Lost in La Wind" style DVD on my shelf somewhere between Touch of Evil and Lady from Shanghai.

The Prodigal Brown.

[Joshua]

If, as I have read in several articles, the film is completely done being shot, other than some sort of special effects that could easily be made with computers now, why in the world with there simply be a documentary made? Sure, shoot a "making of" sort of thing, but please present the movie in some sort of completed form. The film deserves that after all this time.

[Glenn Anders]

Joshua, many of us here are with you, I am sure.

Having seen well over two hours of the material, I might suggest that the problem is how to match the very complicated editing strategy Welles had worked out for the picture with the existing footage. Bogdanovich has said that he knows what Welles envisioned, but even an editor as skillful as Bogdanovich may be daunted by the task. If he can carry out the artistic schema, critics might react that, while the picture would have been electifying in 1975, now it is pathetically dated. In the meantime, lesser directors may have already gleaned for their own purposes the zeitgeist, technique, dialogue, and whole scenes from the carcass of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, rather like the sharks that devoured the big fish in Hemingway's "The Old Man and the Sea." [A rather apt comparison, considering Welles interest in Hemingway and sharks.] Conversely, Bogdanovich and his team might well be saddled with every failing of the completed film.

Apparently, very few people, as of last April when the deal was struck, have ever examined the complete negative, which is said to be in a vault in Paris.

But I'm with you. Let's have the best version of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND that modern editors can produce. Then, take care of the explanations in a documentary on the DVD.

I hope and trust that Bogdanovich, and those around him, eventually have that kind of courage.

Glenn Anders

[Anton]

I thought I read in Joseph McBride's new book on Welles that Oja Kodar and Gary Graver did a full edit of "The Other Side of the Wind" with workprint footage, and that those who saw it were not enthusiastic. Bogdanovitch apparently feels that the only person who could have turned the Wind footage into an Orson Welles film was Welles himself. Someone here mentioned recently that Welles would have gone the documentary route if he had gained full ownership of the negative. Obviously, he felt that the story of the film itself had become more interesting then the story of Jake Hannaford. I'm looking forward to the documentary. If it arouses enough interest, then someone may try doing another full edit later.

[Joshua]

Perhaps this is an ignorant question, but even if there eventually is a documentary made instead of a completed cut of the movie by Bogdanovich, wouldn't the film still need to be edited in some respects in order to present it in a documentary format? Or would they simply just not show everything that they have--perhaps just what was edited by Welles himself?

[Sir Bygber Brown]

Having seen only the scenes that Welles himself edited during his lifetime, I think Bogdanovich may easily be right, the idea of this film and its history has outgrown the film itself beyond imagination.

But this film is going to be made for Welles enthusiasts, for a niche market. Put this way: no-one who hasn't seen Citizen Kane will be checking out The Other Side of the Wind.

There's so much pressure on him, he's opting to take a step that will alleviate that pressure slightly, so at least something gets released at all. Welles enthusiasts should be pleased someone like Bogdanovich is willing to devote time to this project, instead of something of his own, because if it was up to Steven Spielberg and Welles' estate, this film would have stayed buried.

We should be careful not to seem ungrateful.

[Joshua]

because if it was up to Steven Spielberg...this film would have stayed buried.

what interest does he have in not seeing this movie released?

[Roger Ryan]

because if it was up to Steven Spielberg...this film would have stayed buried.

what interest does he have in not seeing this movie released?

Only that he had no interest in putting money into finishing it. Frank Marshall, who worked on "Wind" in the 70s with Welles, went on to produce a number of Spielberg's biggest films, but even with Marshall behind the attempt to complete "Wind" in the 90s, Spielberg did not wish to lend any support.

There seems to be some question whether all the scenes said to be shot were actually shot; in other words, there may not be enough material available to actually complete the film in accordance with any one of the five or six scripts written by Welles and Kodar. I can understand the reluctance to try and edit the film in the style Welles was going for, but it would be nice if enough footage existed to at least present the complete story, even if the editing was of a more conventional style. Perhaps Welles' approach precludes that, which would have been a safeguard against one of the moneymen taking the project out of his hands. If Bogdanovich takes the "It's All True" approach and gives us an approximation of the completed film within the framework of a documentary, I'll be very happy. As I've said before, a completed "Wind" could very well be awful, but that's no excuse not to give it a try.

[The Night Man]

There seems to be some question whether all the scenes said to be shot were actually shot; in other words, there may not be enough material available to actually complete the film in accordance with any one of the five or six scripts written by Welles and Kodar. I can understand the reluctance to try and edit the film in the style Welles was going for, but it would be nice if enough footage existed to at least present the complete story, even if the editing was of a more conventional style. Perhaps Welles' approach precludes that, which would have been a safeguard against one of the moneymen taking the project out of his hands. If Bogdanovich takes the "It's All True" approach and gives us an approximation of the completed film within the framework of a documentary, I'll be very happy. As I've said before, a completed "Wind" could very well be awful, but that's no excuse not to give it a try.

That there may in fact not be enough footage to actually complete TOSOTW is at the same time fascinating, hilarious, and sad. And I suppose I'd have to add 'not surprising' given the convoluted history of the project.

I long ago braced myself for the possibility that a completed "Wind" may turn out to be a stinker, but that doesn't diminish even one iota my desire to see it assembled. While certainly hoping for the best, I'm prepared for something less than that. May the gods bless Bogdanovich in this effort.

[Glenn Anders]

YES! I agree with Roger Ryan and the Night Man.

The very long compilation of sequences that Todd Baesen and I saw did not -- on a quick look -- always fit the script we had. Chunks of "the plot" described in the writing were missing. It appeared to me to be a film within a film within a film. There seemed to be the possibility of at least two or more parallel stories, one of Hannaford's "film," perhaps another in the players' lives, one in "the present" of the day of Hannaford's death, and even one in retrospect -- a la SUNSET BOULEVARD. [Perhaps, that is where the suggestion of a documentary style approach comes from, in this case] But I remember, for instance, no footage of "The Girl" [Oja Kodar] actually taking pot shots at the dummies on the bus, up at the drive-in theater, where the rough cut is being shown. We were assured, however, that this material does exist in the Paris negative (I guess on the word of a few people who have seen it all).

It may be that Oja took personal charge of much of her own footage,
as a bargaining chip in the endgame. If so, presumably that is one of the impediments which has now been removed, and other eyes and hands are getting to examine at all the footage there is to work with.

Let's hope there is lots more than even Todd and I saw.

Glenn Anders

[Pathétique]

I recently watched some clips from this film and would be very interested in seeing a completed version. Sure, Welles' true vision can never fully be realized, but that didn't stop some of his other films from being great.

[Glenn Anders]

More to my earlier suggestions:

It's funny how a few words, a change in perspective, may reveal the obvious. That can be nowhere more true than in looking at the seemingly jumbled kaleidescope of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.

For instance, in the interview with Orson Welles which Larry French has just posted on the Main Page, look at the description Welles gives of his proposed film, The Sacred Beasts, widely accepted as the template for TOSOTW:

"…If you see a man on his way to death, and you must have known people like that. I don’t mean on his way to death by reason of a fatal disease, but on his way to death, truly. You see that man, you see how people react. I think, you may have many choices about how it will happen, but that end is as clear as anything in the world. When people decided on their death, they’ve got it, and there’s a terrible pull toward it, and here you’ve got two people…

"This is a picture about the love of death.

"So we have a picture about those people who watch a [a movie being made], following one [movie-maker/movie] or another. What are they doing? They are waiting for [him to complete his movie]. They are waiting to see him rise into heaven like a saint. What strange instincts are motivating these people? Those people, who are lightheaded and nonsensical and seriously evil, living off of the idea of [movies].

"So we have a picture about the people who live off [movie-making], because they want money, and the people who live off of [movie-making] for emotional reasons, because they are living second-hand. They are experiencing life and death and sex, in a second-hand way. And those people are our cast. "

-----

Suddenly, for me at least, though I've read the description many times, the way THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND should be completed, the way Welles would have done it, falls into place. The "bullfighter" -- Hemingway, George Steven, or Welles himself, if you will -- and "bull-fighting" or "death" is suddenly replaced with "movie-maker" or "movie-making" or "movie." By that act, in the film Welles actually shot, he interposed one set of central images for another. He gave us this schema, and in typical Wellsian fashion, all the footage from the picture we have seen so far illustrates that schema, except that as he suggests in the interview, he has turned his actors into individual and literal versions of "I Am a Camera."

It becomes clear that the heart of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND is the bullfight, that is, the movie. J.J. Hannaford is alternatively the torredor and the bull, as is Johnny Dale. The Girl (Oja Kodar) is their prize. All the crazy people who make the movie are the corrida, and all the people going to the premiere of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND are the spectators going to the bullfight. And the Drive-in Movie Theater is the bullfight palace, where the aficianados gather. And then, interspliced, there are those producers and critics who watch the rushes, the process.

It is both a celebration and a funeral.

One remove from reality. And then another remove from reality. And then, another remove from reality. Always one more remove from "reality."

So, the race to the Drive-in Movie Theater -- by car, bus, or by motorcycle -- is the movie maker's race to death, toward the finality of the finished film. During which, and afterward, everyone standing around, the spectators, will "shoot" each other.

And of course, the schema is also a metaphor for Life because this pursuit of the great beast, TOSOTW, is what everyone involved, including ourselves, I suppose, have been doing for at least the last thirty years.

I hope that Bogdanovich and his group of intrepid film hunters can bring this ancient monster out of its cave into the light before the dogs of time have devoured it.

[nextren]

Greetings. Several things make me suspect that the TOSOTW project is not simply a documentary.

1. TOSOTW will be released theatrically next year, according to this little tribute (July 11):

http://www.hutchinsonleader.com/node/3370

Unless by "theatrical release" this writer means "two art houses," I believe we'll see this in some coastal theatres - which suggests it will be a narrative fiction feature (the subject being too obscure for a theatrical documentary).

2. I'm not confident in Ms. Kodar's statement that it will be a documentary. After all, she also said that it's all out of her hands now. Meaning, possibly, she's out of the loop.

3. As to Mr. Bogdonovitch's crew lensing the opening of the film vault where the negatives were stored (a la Geraldo's opening of Al Capone's vault - with better results I hope!), perhaps this is simply coverage for a featurette on the eventual DVD. You get your shots when you can.

4. As others have mentioned, there was a rough cut shopped around by Gary Graver (see the new book "Whatever Happened to Orson Welles?"). It was unsatisfactory to some, but it existed, and Mr. Bogdonovitch is an artist who could put his hand to it. Orson even completed 40 minutes of the final edit. These things are nothing to sneeze at.

5. My own wishful thinking...I want a real TOSOTW.

[jbrooks]

In McBride's 2006 book, he notes that the workprint Graver put together was missing some "key scenes" that had not yet been struck from the negative. Is it possible that these scenes were never in fact shot?

I recall Bogdanovich mentioning last year that the film was "supposedly" complete. I didn't know why he was hedging on that, but now I wonder.

But wouldn't Graver have known what had been shot and what was not shot? And didn't Graver state on many occasions that all that was left to be shot were a couple of pick-up shots or special effects stuff that could be done without any of the cast?

I guess I wouldn't mind a documentary if it played like "It's All True" -- with an introduction, followed by as much of the film as is available (perhaps with Bogdanovich appearing now and then to explain some missing plot element).