Don Quijote

[jbrooks]

Lucy,

I wouldn't trust James Howard's account on these matters. His accounting seems far too simplistic. For example, as many on this board know, Stefan Drössler of the Munich Film Museum has been working to restore The Deep, such as it is. But it was never entirely shot, and the original negative is lost. Also, much of the sound work was never done. All that exists is an incomplete (and very beat up) work print. Gary Graver was no doubt aware of this restoration project and surely would have spoken up and mentioned if he happened to have the complete negative in his garage.

On "The Other Side of the Wind," other sources indicate that the negative is in a vault in Paris -- not Los Angeles.

Perhaps you were joking, but I just don't buy the idea that Graver was secretly holding on to completed Welles films.

[Lucy]

Yes, I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but the theory is not completely implausible. For one thing, I don't see how an entire negative of a film can simply "get lost". Would Gary Graver have spoken up about the negative if he knew Beatrice's lawyers would be all over him? Bonnani has stated that Franco's version was all leftover stuff. Perhaps Welles left Oja the leftover stuff of several movies so she could make a buck from several different European museums.

[Glenn Anders]

I agree.

This story is obviously a very complicated and confused one. It can be simple only in the way that Mr. Rawlston thought "rosebud" would be a simple story.

When I was able to see the footage of Welles' Dead Calm (through the good offices of Todd Baesen), I could glean a movie there, though as you say, jbrooks, there was no sound track, and there were gaps. With music, narration, dubbing and clever editing, the picture might come to something. The film struck me as rather whimsical, Welles playing a broadly comic character, rather in the style of Charles Laughton.

I'm afraid, however, Welles version might not stand up very well in comparison to Philip Noyce's 1989 theatrical release. For instance, Oja Kodar looks beautiful and moves well, but it is hard to imagine that her performance would convey the troubled emotional state of Dead Calm's heroine. Nicole Kidman, in her first important part, shows far greater potential as an actress under Noyce's direction, in the later film.

[Lucy]

"Dead Calm" is a good movie, but I'm not convinced it would have been better then Welles's film. I forget which one, but one of the Welles books mentions a complete 1970 edit of the film, and Welles himself said that the only two films he did not complete were Quixote and Wind, which implies that "The Deep" was finished at some point. We've also discussed on this thread the very real possibility that "Don Quixote" was completed by Welles as well.

Think about it: if Welles couldn't be bothered to finish The Deep and DQ, then why would he bother to will all that stuff to Oja to have someone else complete it? Why not just destroy all of it? Not finishing those films was tantamount to having destroyed them anyway. That whole scenario just doesn't make any sense.

[Roger Ryan]

As we all know, books can have misleading information in them. I think it's important to establish the context in which the term "complete" is used to describe "The Deep". If it means that most of the scripted scenes were shot and roughly assembled minus most of the climatic fight scene and some other "2nd unit" footage, then maybe you could consider "The Deep" complete. Of course, you would also have to take in consideration that approx. 75% of the soundtrack is non-existent. After viewing the two-hour work print assembly put together by the Munich Film Museum, I would have to agree with Glenn that the results are not particularly promising for what we would call a "classic Welles film".

[Tony]

Of course the rumour has persisted for years that the Deep was actually only a ruse to be with Oja and not raise suspicion with Paula, and that Welles never intended to finish it. And that perhaps this was one of the reasons that Jeanne was annoyed, that and the fact that an inexperienced Susan Alexander type was getting star billing over Moreau. Apparantly when she complained, Welles said "Jeanne, you're not 24 anymore". And needless to say, even though OW wrote a part for her in TOSOTW, JM never acted for Welles again.

Affairs can be expensive, in so many ways.

[Lucy]

I've never heard that rumor before. Could be some truth to it, but then I think that might be going a bit far in the "fool-for-love" department.

Not to finish a film is to murder it, Orson Welles once said. I'll take your word for it Roger, when you say that "The Deep" wouldn't have been classic Welles. But does that mean it should have been "murdered" by being left unfinished? Welles himself said that the film "showed it's poverty, but had good performances", which suggests that he didn't think it was all that bad. Welles could have done several things with it, including selling it to TV as a made-for-TV film, so that expectations would have been lower. He could have sold it as a direct-to-video release. He could have released it not as an Orson Welles film, but under some kind of directorial pseudonym. Anything would have been better then simply murdering it by not finishing it. To come so close to completing a film and then not bothering to complete it strikes me as just plain crazy or foolish. Especially since Welles professed to be so offended by Charles Higham's "fear-of-completion" theory. By not finishing The Deep or Don Quixote he would have purposely fed right into Higham's hands. I like to think Orson Welles wasn't that stupidly self-destructive. I could be wrong, though.

But let's say that Welles did not complete either DQ or The Deep. Then either James Howard is an outright liar or the late Gary Graver would have been an asshole for saying that these films were completed when they weren't. Again, I like to think that's not the case.

[Glenn Anders]

Lucy: Having seen a major portion of the footage for at least THE DEEP, I think the answer may be that Welles finished these films in terms of the shooting phase. He had a wealth of material for both THE DEEP and DON QUIJOTE, but then, the question came of how to find the time, money and reliable collaborators to really finish the film, to polish it. Simon Callow remarks that, almost from the beginning, this factor was Welles' problem. For one reason or another, he could not get back to the process he claimed that he loved most: Editing.

THE DEEP is indeed an all but finished picture. One can see how it should come together. But without a sound track, some of which I understand exists in France, the film will not be realized.

Glenn

[Roger Ryan]

I will say that Welles himself is quite amusing in "The Deep" and is probably the best thing in it. Again, most of his dialogue is missing so I'm judging his and others' performances on facial expressions and body language. "The Deep" is really an ensemble piece (much like "The Immortal Story"), but Welles and Moreau appear to be at a noticeably higher level performance-wise than the other three actors. Laurence Harvey does not seem to have a clear grasp on his character, but then most of his lines in the work print sound like they were dubbed by Welles doing a broad Southern aristocratic accent - not a good match. Oja appears to be sleepwalking through much of it; you never get the sense that she's in peril. As I've said before, it's always difficult to shoot a film on a boat, but the intriguing camera compositions and dynamic editing one is used to with Welles are not on display here and that hurts. If Welles finished it, "The Deep" probably would have been an average Made-For-TV-Movie. Of all the footage that is out there from Welles' unfinished projects, this footage struck me as having the least potential.

[mido505]

Of course the rumour has persisted for years that the Deep was actually only a ruse to be with Oja and not raise suspicion with Paula, and that Welles never intended to finish it. And that perhaps this was one of the reasons that Jeanne was annoyed, that and the fact that an inexperienced Susan Alexander type was getting star billing over Moreau. Apparantly when she complained, Welles said "Jeanne, you're not 24 anymore". And needless to say, even though OW wrote a part for her in TOSOTW, JM never acted for Welles again.

Tony: would you please be so kind as to post your source for the above information, which I have seen you mention in other places. I believe you have also stated elsewhere that Moreau was so angry at Welles that she refused to go to Paris and complete her dubbing. I find this all very fascinating, but the only information I have been able to dig up has Moreau stating that Welles never sent her the tickets to Paris to do the dubbing work; also, I have come across some vague statements from Willy Kurant describing "tension" on the set between the two actresses. Frankly, I find it very difficult to believe that an actress of Moreau's standing would do something so unprofessional, even if she was angry at Welles. To imperil a film like that would hurt her standing in the industry, no matter what the reasons. And by the time of the great BBC interview years later, she seems to have cooled down.

I also find it hard to believe that Welles would go to all the trouble of making a picture that he had no intention of releasing, simply to spend time with his girlfriend. I do think that THE DEEP was one of the few times in Welles' life (THE STRANGER is another) that he caved in and deliberately tried to make a "commercial" picture, while hoping to make Oja a star in the bargain. Such attempts rarely work (imagine William S. Burroughs deliberately trying to write a bestseller!), and I think Welles eventually soberly realized he did not have much of a film in his hands with THE DEEP, and abandoned it as not being up to his standards. After all, Welles has been quoted several times saying that no one questions a novelist when he decides that his manuscript is crap, and burns it.

I think that it is safe to assume that the one thing Welles abhorred was the idea of anyone besides himself completing one of his films. My God, all these people: Bogdanovich claiming that Welles asked him to complete TOSOTW after his death, and Oja claiming the same for THE DREAMERS. Welles had DECADES after shooting TOSOTW, DQ, and THE DEEP to edit them into final form. He didn't need these people to finish anything for him. He could have handed Bogdanovich a completed workprint of TOSOTW, and said, after I die, if you and Oja ever get back control of the negative, here is the blueprint, thanks for the memories. He did no such thing. He never completed this stuff because he chose not to. As Pauline Kael said in another context, there ain't no way...

[The Night Man]

He never completed this stuff because he chose not to. As Pauline Kael said in another context, there ain't no way...

Mido, the situation that Welles faced in the last fifteen years of his life was very unlike what had come before. Here was a man who had had it all, come home after years in exile yet unable to get a break in the (one would think more accommodating) "new Hollywood" of the 70s and reduced to Paul Masson wine adverts to pay his bills. On top of which, years of high living and heavy drinking were beginning to catch up with him, health-wise.

I can easily imagine Welles finding it difficult on many levels to complete these projects. It was one thing to complete Othello on his own dime at age 35 when he was still (sort of) a "boy wonder". But scrambling to find money to complete projects at age 60 in a world far less hospitable must have been tremendously daunting as well as emotionally distressing.

[Lucy]

Why was Welles always trying to launch new projects when he had already left so many incomplete? If I was a potential investor I would have been pretty skeptical of Welles too.

I think Welles eventually soberly realized he did not have much of a film in his hands with THE DEEP, and abandoned it as not being up to his standards. After all, Welles has been quoted several times saying that no one questions a novelist when he decides that his manuscript is crap, and burns it.

Yes, but then why did he bother leaving all that workprint footage to Oja?

He could have handed Bogdanovich a completed workprint of TOSOTW, and said, after I die, if you and Oja ever get back control of the negative, here is the blueprint, thanks for the memories. He did no such thing. He never completed this stuff because he chose not to.

That is probably the most baffling thing of all. Why would he choose not to even finish the workprint?

[mido505]

Night Man:

You make a very good point regarding Welles' health in the last decade of his life, but I think that that would pertain more towards shooting a film than towards the editing. Certainly, Welles' legendary stamina had diminished with age, but shooting on THE DEEP, TOSOTW, DQ, and other projects was had been for the most part completed. For DQ, we have ample evidence that a nearly complete workprint did exist up until the early 80's; and there is evidence for and against that THE DEEP was pretty much finished. But only 40 minutes of TOSOTW edited by Welles? After 10 years? As Lucy points out, if money was an issue, why start new projects when old ones were incomplete? Why put wine commercial money into THE DREAMERS when it could be used to finish editing an earlier project? It makes no sense.

Regarding Welles' health, could he have been suffering from depression? Was he perhaps an undiagnosed manic depressive? This is purely speculative, but there are indications: the periods of incredible, ebullient energy; the dark moods; the ominous extended moments of silence and brooding. Oja, in ONE MAN BAND, talks about "the black dogs barking at the door". Audrey Stainton's article has some telling anecdotes as well. As one who has suffered from severe depression in the past, I can tell you that, when the black clouds descend, NOTHING that you do looks worth while. I would not be surprised if Welles' considerable alcohol intake throughout his life was not some form of self-medication.

Certainly, many great figures have suffered from this malady: Virginia Woolf, Churchill, and Hemingway, for example. Welles talks very movingly in an interview about how Hemingway's illness eventually destroyed him. Welles come across, in that interview segment, as very simpatico...

[Glenn Anders]

Dear mido505: Again, you have something.

Remember, that during the 1930's and early 1940's, though it was sophisticated in intellectual circles and journals, and in sybarite Sodoms of places like Hollywood, to appeal to "alienists" for the treatment of "manic depression" (being nuts!), most Americans tried to deny such a weakness. Indeed, alcohol was (and probably still is) the self-medication of choice to palliate the symptoms, which really only discourages the manic pain of the high phases of the condition.

As several of us have suggested before, Hemingway was obviously the intellectual, literary and macho hero of the era -- no less so for serious emerging artists of Cinema like Welles and John Huston. How terribly sad it must have been for some like Welles to witness the public decline of their hero into megalomania, artistic falling away, and suicide. It must have been like the tapping of the Raven at their chamber door.

Glenn

[mido505]

You are so right, Glenn, Hemingway was the giant of that era, to an extent that we can scarcely comprehend today, where there is no real literary culture to speak of. His suicide must have sent shock waves around the world. Welles, in that interview, can barely bring himself to talk about it; he keeps repeating things like "it wasn't him", "it wasn't really him", etc, and he is so tender about it, it's really quite touching. An interesting paradox, that Welles, who was vocally and artistically very critical of that Hemingwayesque "machoism", at the same time followed the master in so many things: the bullfighting, the love of Spain, etc. Welles must have identified with Hemingway's attempt to live by archaic values in the modern, godless world; but ultimately went in a different direction towards the goddess via Robert Graves.