Love triangle - Cherchez la femme...

[catbuglah]

I was just noticing a sort of recurring 'love triangle' theme in Welles' films, with the same recurring characters in varying aspects, degree, and emphasis. I'd describe the first character as the tragic, insecure tyrant - call him Minos for brevity's sake. The female character, besides being the familiar object of rival affections, also plays a role of catalyst for the intrigue, and often holds a sort of key to power ('cherchez la femme'- seems an a propos expression in regards to Welles' films.) call her Ariadne. The third player is often a kind of naive, impetuous and simple hero, with an underlying sense of goodness, who usually provokes the downfall of the Minos type. Call him Theseus. Here's a brief list of this Minos, Ariadne, Theseus triangle that I've tried to pick out:

Kane - Kane, Emily, Leland - also Kane, Susan, Leland
Ambersons - George, Isabel, Eugene also George, Lucy, Eugene
Stranger - Kindler, Mary, Noah
LFS - Bannister, Elsa, O'Hara
Macbeth - Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, Macduff
Othello - Iago, Desdemona, Othello also Othello, Desdemona, Cassio
Arkadin - Arkadin, Raina, Van Stratten
TOE - Quinlan, Susan, Vargas
Trial - Mrs. Grumbach, Mrs. Burstner, Joseph K. also Hastler, Irmie, K.
Chimes - Hal, Doll, Falstaff
Immortal Story - Clay, Virginia, Paul

I wanted to make a work in the spirit of Dickens, with characters so dense that they appear as archetypes....OW

[Kevin Loy]

That's interesting, but who is in the love triangle in F For Fake? Well, actually, I can think of one example in that film. I also think that it is a little difficult to say that The Trial belies a love triangle, simply because K doesn't return any affection. I'm also not sure that I'd say Quinlan has any interest in Suzie, but you're definitely right about films like Ambersons and Shanghai.

It is interesting to see this, though I've always felt that key aspects of Welles' work were the ideas of power and change. Most of his films (if not all of them) are dominated by a powerful character (not just powerful in the sense of being domineering, but also in the fact that pretty much all of these figures hold extreme amounts of financial wealth and/or social recognition), and the principal conflicts regard how they deal with changes, both direct and indirect.

[catbuglah]

That's interesting, but who is in the love triangle in F For Fake? Well, actually, I can think of one example in that film.

Thanky. Yeah, there it is again.

it is a little difficult to say that The Trial belies a love triangle, simply because K doesn't return any affection.

I think he sneaks a few kisses in here and there. Buys a cake. But I'd say the that the Wellesian love triangle is rarely your typical romantic Casablanca/Sophie's Choice type love triangle. There's generally a strong age difference between the Minos and Theseus types which gives distinct Oedipal implications, similar to what's found in older forms of literature.

The love is also expressed in many variations as to who's loving who and the form of expression. It could be affection, jealosy, lust, repressed feelings, sexualized confrontation, ...

not sure that I'd say Quinlan has any interest in Suzie

Yeah. That one's quite indirect. But I'd say that because Quinlan is the one who arranges for Susan's abduction and sexual assault in order to thwart Vargas (on their honeymoon, to boot) and Susan plays quite a catalysing role, the triangle is implicitly recognizable. So it's sexualized rivalry.

definitely right about films like Ambersons and Shanghai.

Yeah. Some are quite clear, I think it was Arkadin and Immortal Story that got me on that track...In the other cases, I'd say that it's still present, at least as a significant secondary theme.

I've always felt that key aspects of Welles' work were the ideas of power and change. Most of his films (if not all of them) are dominated by a powerful character

Yeah. That's basically what I retained from reading Bazin, Naremore, McBride. But I felt like getting away from that a bit and look at the other characters who may not have as interesting personalities but play important roles nonetheless.

Actually, a fourth archetypal Wellesian character has come up. The Minos character usually seems to have a fairly goofy or sheepish sidekick whose role seems to be about loyalty/betrayal. Call him Sarpedon.

Kane - Bernstein
Ambersons - Fanny
Stranger - Meinike
LFS - Grisby
Macbeth - Banquo, Seyton
Othello - Roderigo
Arkadin - Jacob Zouk
TOE - Menzies
Trial - Block
Chimes - Poins, Justice Shalow
Immortal Story - Levinksy

[Kevin Loy]

Yeah. That one's quite indirect. But I'd say that because Quinlan is the one who arranges for Susan's abduction and sexual assault in order to thwart Vargas (on their honeymoon, to boot) and Susan plays quite a catalysing role, the triangle is implicitly recognizable. So it's sexualized rivalry.

But did Quinlan know that Susan would be sexually assaulted? Of course, I doubt he would have cared, but I think that Quinlan's main interest was to set her up on a drug (and later murder) rap. So, the sexual assault was more at the behest of the gang members than Quinlan. Still, Quinlan does offer more than a passing interest towards Susan...though for an alternate triangle in Touch Of Evil, I think of the two Linneakers and Sanchez. Though Sanchez wouldn't count as a "hero", he does fit the description of being naive simple, and Marcia Linneaker would obviously be the key to great power (i.e. her father's wealth)...and from what little is known about Rudy Linneaker, he was obviously insecure about Sanchez.

Don't misunderstand me, though: I'm all for differing interpretations of films, and the idea of latent love trianges in his films is an interesting one that I had never fully considered, aside from the obvious examples.

[catbuglah]

Don't misunderstand me, though: I'm all for differing interpretations of films, and the idea of latent love trianges in his films is an interesting one that I had never fully considered, aside from the obvious examples.

Hey no problem, a discussion board to me is to discuss stuff. Please feel free to express your viewpoint on this topic. I have all the respect in the world for freedom of thought. I'm not offended if people disagree with my opinions - it can be condusive to stimulating new perspectives.

Thing is, the 'love triangle' notion came to me rather suddenly, any analysis done almost in the time it took to type out the post, so I haven't really verified if all the relationships hold up to this idea. I suspect if one analysed all the changes Welles made in adapting his scripts from the original source, one would come up with some intriguing results in this regard. The Quinlan, Susan, and Vargas, implied sexual tension or no, do seem to fit the respective character types and roles and seem to be somehow linked together. (His attempt to have Susan abducted and framed seems to precipitate his downfall. The Grandi murder with Susan on the bed strikes me as being significant). I think a further look into the film would be necessary. What I find interesting is that although the three character types seem to reappear fairly consistently, the conflict resolutions aren't always the same, there's interesting and complex variations to each character's outcome. (For example, Ariadne's relation to Minos has many variations, she can be his wife, mother, daughter, lover, even tenant, or employee; or Theseus' wife, lover, or sister.)

though for an alternate triangle in Touch Of Evil, I think of the two Linneakers and Sanchez.

Hey good point. I hadn't noticed that one. Interesting...

the idea of latent love trianges in his films

Latent would be a good term. ... latent love triangle or love triangle with latent oedipal connotations

[catbuglah]

From the Arkadin booklet - J. Hoberman - Welles amazed : The lives of Mr. Arkadin

Borges famously described Citizen Kane as a labyrinth without a center. Mr. Arkadin does have a center. It's a maze designed by the Minotaur.

[Tashman]

Speaking of Hoberman, I noticed that he makes the labyrinth more complicated than it really is, calling the lost woman-on-the-beach shot "never explained" or "unexplained" or something. Not only is it explained with the new comprehensive version, but it was explained when it appeared in the CONFIDENTIAL REPORT version. Hard to keep track of these things, I know, but someone at Criterion might have dropped him a note or footnoted that remark in the booklet. It's somehow fitting that Welles can't win even when he's the guest of honor.

[Tony]

Dear Cat:
I don't know about triangles, but of course the two-males duality has often been noted, often with one being older:

Kurtz/Marlow
Kane/Leland
Kindler/Wilson
O'Hara/Bannister
Lime/Martins
Borgia/Orsini
Othello/Iago
Ahab/Moby Dick
Quinlan/Vargas
Quixote/Panza
Hastler/Joseph K
Falstaff/Prince Hal
Clay/Levinsky
Hanneford/Otterlake
Menaker/Pellarin

I actually don't think women were too important in Welles's aesthetic scheme of things; they just don't seem central to the real action, unless Shakespeare provides him with one that is: the strongest females in Welles's ouvre are Lady Macbeth, Cordelia and Desdemona. But other than those, Welles's women seem to be beautiful window-dressing: his films are resolutely male, without being macho. Of course, the dual-male theme even washes over into some of his stonger acting roles, esp. in the 40s. No doubt Callow should have a field day with all of this, but I wonder if it isn't actually always an internal dialogue? ??? Welles's central theme seems to me to be about morality, and the corruption over time of the soul- in particular, the male soul. At any rate, its clearly an obession at some level, crucial to his psyche to be repeated so often and regularily. Which is why ending Ambersons with Fanny and Eugene and not Eugene and George seems so strange; perhaps Welles was constitutionally unable to depict a scene of forgiveness between two males.

Here's a quote from Maurice Bessy:

Welles: "Women block all conversation. That dates from the day they won the right to vote. They should have stayed slaves...Women are stupid; I've known some who are less stupid than others, but they're all stupid."

And Welles on his relationship with Lea Padovani: "During the nine months that I spent with her, I paid for everything that I had ever done to women for twenty years, but in two days I made her pay for what she did to me during those nine months."

Yikes!!! One does not want to imagine just what happened during those two days...maybe he was macho!

:O

And finally, Bessy on Welles: "...like all artists,Welles carries a woman within himself, which makes any normal relationship with a real woman enormously difficult. He himself has said that though he acts and gives with the soul of a man, he registers and receives with the soul of a woman. And he further states that the only good artists are feminine."

And Welles of course said that Shakespeare had an enormously developed feminine side...

[catbuglah]

of course the two-males duality has often been noted, often with one being older:

Interesting list. I see that as related to a 'son kills father-figure' theme as found in myths (Zeus kills Kronos, Jack kills giant and marries princess, etc...) This relation is present in the love triangle I'm noticing, to which is added a female character who becomes involved in the conflict and plays an integral role in determining the outcome of the conflict. (There are 2 films where it isn't clear to me that the Ariadne character plays that determing role, the Trial, because of the more collectivised focus and Chimes, although there is a memorable scene with Hal, Doll, and Falstaff, I can't remember anything more substantial,...)

his films are resolutely male

Certainly at least 7 of the 11 of his films I've mentioned are focused on Welles playing the tragic fall of an imposing, paternal figure. I'm noticing, that on top of that, there are at least two other characters, while although linked to the Minos character, nonetheless have their own distinctive identities and pursue their own specific destinies while occupying roles that are integral to the film's fabric.

As for women, I think if one were to undertake a study of the female characters and the feminine side of things in Welles' films, one would not be lacking in interesting material. Cherchez la femme...

Welles's central theme seems to me to be about morality and the corruption over time of the soul-

Interesting points, one could possibly add a few more such as justice, loyalty, faith, aristocratic ideals, nostalgia for a golden age, lost innonence, etc...

[catbuglah]

The novel promotes character analogues everywhere, and not just between Van Stratten and Arkadin. Van Stratten recognizes himself in Raina, and confuses both Raina and Mily with his mother. So pervasive are the parallels that it's almost as if all of these are ultimately the same person. But as Welles surmised, "Maybe a man's name doesn't matter all that much."

Robert Polito , Preface, Mr. Arkadin novel

[catbuglah]

'For Hal is Falstaff's Jove, the son who deposes his king-father, old Saturn. It is only at this appropriate moment that Falstaff calls Hal Jove. He has never done so before, but Hal himself has made the identification. 'It was Jove's case,' he says as he dons the leather jerkin disguise to spy on Falstaff and Doll - Saturn and Venus as he calls them.'

Philip Williams in Henry IV, Part Two, Signet Classic, p. 210

[catbuglah]

Roger Ryan posted this on the 'Orsigari' thread, but seeing as this thread uses the 'minotaur' image...

Catbuglah has drawn attention to my favorite moment in "Touch Of Evil": Quinlan sits in the bordello in front of a wall filled with framed photos of bullfighters. Suddenly, Vargas' face appears in a framed mirror also on the wall, briefly establishing him as one of the bullfighters. And who is he looking to "fight"? Quinlan stands up placing himself in the same frame as the bull's head!

Welles may have claimed that he didn't like symbolism, but he attains it here almost effortlessly and enriches the film all the more.