Best film on which Welles had final cut

[Store Hadji]

There weren't that many, were there?

Oh well, Kubrick and Gilliam don't have that many releases either.

[Jeff Wilson]

I think you could make an argument for anything on the list, aside from Filming Othello and maybe Immortal Story; I voted for Chimes, in any case.

[Store Hadji]

I voted for The Trial. But I never can decide between Chimes, Fake or that one - next time my opinion flips I would vote differently.

[Shaunfon333]

The only one I have not seen here is Chimes at Midnight (and from what I hear, could have changed my vote), but until I see it, The Trial is my favorite Welles' film of all time.

[Store Hadji]

I think The Trial has better editing, but Chimes has better performnaces and a very emotionally powerful ending which makes me cry every time I see it. Some great comedy in Chimes too. AND that amazing battle scene.

[Store Hadji]

Strange how polls work...right now Kane is in first place. However, there are more votes for something other than Kane, than for Kane itself...that's seems like a less-than-decisive victory. In other words, more people think Kane is not the best than people who think it is. Beware of polls, people...it's very easy to lie with them.

[Glenn Anders]

Get real, gang! Welles made many films, but the only masterpiece he made, at the top of his form, with the full resources of "The Dream Factory" at his disposal, was CITIZEN KANE. If he had had the full support and technical support of Hollywood for subsequent projects, any film he made later might have surpassed it, but that was not to be.

JOURNEY INTO FEAR, IT'S ALL TRUE, THE STRANGER, THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI, and THE TRIAL may be admired for what they might have been. MACBETH, OTHELLO, TOUCH OF EVIL, CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT, and F FOR FAKE stand for what they are. Who knows what THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS or THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, or unfinished projects may become, if missing footage is discovered?

But right now, CITIZEN KANE, by most critical views, is not only Welles' best film, BUT the best film of all time.

Get over being bored by that statement.

It is a fact.

Glenn

[Store Hadji]

Kane was the lucky one. Final cut, the train set to play with, the cast, the script, the composer...Welles never had all those elements in place again. I think he developed as a filmmaker and actor after Kane, and I give a nod to that maturity in not naming Kane as his best. Technically, yes, Kane is the best, but there's some ineffable x-factor that his later films possessed which Kane did not.

[Glenn Anders]

Agreed, Hadji, the later films gave full play to his personal expression, but they suffered from technical failings, interference, and self-indulgence (which might not have been such a problem, if he had received the support his genius needed).

Glenn

[Kevin Loy]

the later films gave full play to his personal expression, but they suffered from technical failings, interference, and self-indulgence (which might not have been such a problem, if he had received the support his genius needed).

Glenn, you do have a point, though I don't necessarily think that it is fair or accurate to chide other people for thinking that Welles made better films than Citizen Kane. Personally speaking, I don't generally get bothered by technical limitations, otherwise, I'd be driven nuts by things like one of the final scenes in Faces, where you can hear the casters for the camera skidding along the pavement as the shot follows John Marley to his house, which would cause me to miss an incredible film in the process. Actually, I think that it is more of a testament to the capabilities of a director to be able to make an incredible film with very few resources than to be handed a huge budget by Hollywood and make a film that might make a ton of money, but generally isn't very worthwhile. Of course, there have been great films made with large budgets, and many terrible films made with low budgets...

[Glenn Anders]

I don't mean to chide. I often just have what I call a breezy style here.

What we do know about Welles later films is that many of them may be largely "perfectable," as we may discover, for instance, when the Criterion CONFIDENTIAL REPORT/MR. ARDADIN comes out in April

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, I don't mean to offend unintentionally. I was just making a generalization that has often been expressed here by others about Welles' later films.

Let's hope all of them, by some miracle, can be perfected.

Glenn

[Store Hadji]

Personally I prefer the bungled and the botched. Perfection is over-rated.

[Tashman]

CITIZEN KANE, by most critical views, is not only Welles' best film, BUT the best film of all time

Clicking at random on critics from the last Sight & Sound sampling who put KANE in their top ten is a fun way of meditating on this line of reasoning.

[Glenn Anders]

Perhaps so, Tashman.

Not having looked at the SIGHT AND SOUND 2002 Poll in a couple of years, I did as you suggested.

The first thing which struck me was that I didn't understand immediately the methodology of the Poll. I take it that the votes were weighted and/or allocated by a standard established in earlier SIGHT AND SOUND polls. Fair enough.

Secondly, I was embarrassed by how few of the critics cited I was familiar with, or had even heard of. This may be put down to the fact that I tend to go my own way. Critics to me are tied to the publications in which they appear. I go for a Christian Science Monitor, The Village Voice, The New Yorker, The Guardian, The Chicago Reader, The New York Times, The Hollywood Reporter, etc. I recognize critics who work for the publications I consult.

Thirdly, it came to me that though SIGHT AND SOUND is known for its Critics Poll, I really thought in terms of directors, and only in 2002 were directors added, possibly in hopes that the conclusions might be a bit different. There were differences, below the Number One Spot. The critics, for instance, liked VERTIGO for Number Two, but the directors preferred 8 1/2. [Is a psychological commentary lurking in those choices?] Both groups, however, picked CITIZEN KANE as the Best Film of All Time, as the critics had in 1962,1972, 1982, and 1992.

Not only that but the critics have picked Welles as Best Director for five decades.

Obviously, no matter the methodology, no matter the group, Welles is the man, and CITIZEN KANE is the picture.

As an anecdotal aside, I had the honor last Sunday to meet and chat with Directors Paul Mazursky (ENEMIES: A LOVE STORY) and Joe Dante (GREMLINS), seasoned and accomplished veterans from two generations. Both spoke admiringly of Welles. In the SIGHT AND SOUND POLL, I notice that Dante picked CITIZEN KANE for first, but Mazursky took BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI, with CITIZEN KANE second. They both picked Welles as the best director of all time.

My personal experience doesn't prove much, but does confirm that two contemporary directors seem not to have changed their minds about Welles in the last four years.

Thank you, Tashman, for encouraging us to actually go back to look at those poll results.

While I'm at it, let's get back to Our Poll. Let me throw in another reason why CITIZEN KANE should, in my opinion, be considered his best: Of the films listed, only CITIZEN KANE and F FOR FAKE are comtemporaneous and original. "The Making of Othello" to one side (not a serious contender), all the others are adaptations and set in the past (MACBETH, OTHELLO, CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT) or are dark fables (THE TRIAL, THE IMMORTAL STORY). Most critical evaluations of modern literature or drama give higher marks to works which are original and set in the life and times of the creator. By that criteria, CITIZEN KANE again should be Number One (as it is), but F FOR FAKE, an original and brilliant film which meets all the other tests, should be much higher on our list.

To sum up, may we agree that the poorest of Welles' films might vie to be equal to many recognized directors' best ones?

Glenn

[NoFake]

Glenn: "As an anecdotal aside, I had the honor last Sunday to meet and chat with Directors Paul Mazursky (ENEMIES: A LOVE STORY) and Joe Dante (GREMLINS), seasoned and accomplished veterans from two generations. Both spoke admiringly of Welles."

That's not surprising. Mazursky is openly admiring of Welles in the chapter "Citizen Welles," of his 1999 book "Show Me the Magic." In it, he recounts his experience working with Welles in TOSOTW, when "the greatest director of all time" asked him to be in the party scene. He concludes: "Six months later I fiinally saw an hour of cut film. My scene with Henry [Jaglom] was down to about fifteen seconds. But at least I had been directed by Orson Welles."