out of curiousity 2? - The "OH NO, not another one!" post

[Orson&Jazz]

First time I ever seen a locked topic here. I don't know whether I should feel honoured or deviant?


I was curious to know how much information one can really know about Orson. Is the collected knowledge here mainly about his film career, his radio career, or his theatre career? Is there any one that has knowledge of the general aspects of his life? I am talking about the stuff that may seem trivial, but are fascinating nonetheless. Are we limited to discussing his career only? Can we discuss Orson generally?


I am interested in the minor details, but stuff that is probably considered trite to many here. But stuff like:


What were his favourite films?
Favourite singers?
How long were he and Jo Cotton friends? And how did they meet?
Out of all his films, which was the only ones he could tolerate watching?
What brand of cigars did he favour?
What brand of pipe?
How long was he in the Todd School?
Is there a yearbook cataloguing his stay there?
What was his favourite subject in school?
What size shoes did he wear?
What kind of cologne did he wear?
How many pairs of suspenders did he own?
Did he ever retain a relationship with his brother?
Is his brother still alive?
Of all the affairs he claimed to have had, was there a total he had admitted to having had?
What was his I.Q. really?
Why Pineapple Juice?
What were his favourite books. Authors?
In his admiration of Shakespeare, which was by far his favourite play?
How tall was he really?
When did he begin magic, and what was his specialty?
What women were linked to him romantically through the duration of his life, meaning his Hollywood life and Hollywood women?
Was he really as volatile as people claim? And what has been the most outrageous story dipicting this volatile behaviour?
Did he really get beat up outside of the theatre when he was staging his 'Voodoo Macbeth'?
Was he really sent death threats?
Of all his radio shows, which was his favourite?
What about his plays he staged, did he favour one specifically?
What was the real reason he stopped voicing The Shadow?
Did he speak any other languages?



I have much much more questions, but I stop here. These are all I can think of off the top of my head.


I reason why I ask is because he is just so fascinating. I want to learn every little thing about him, even the trivial things.

[Johnny Dale]

I'll start with the question you asked before the first thread was locked,

I don't even know what's going on? Who's Clifford Irving, and how is he relevant to Orson?

Gary Graver wrote:

After shooting on and off for two years, on the feature The Other Side of the Wind, Orson Welles created a project called F for Fake. He brought me to Paris and Madrid and to the Spanish resort of Puerto Rey, to make a film about the art forger Elmyr de Hory and his biographer, Clifford Irving. During the filming of this, Irving published a book about the famous Howard Hughes. It was a fake book. This changed our film. As the newspapers changed each day about the Clifford Irving and Howard Hughes story, so did our film. Orson was editing every day in Paris at Studio Antegor and at night we would be filming a new sequence to progress the film. The news made the film F for Fake.

[Roger Ryan]

Regarding inquiry #3: Welles and Joseph Cotten met on a radio show circa 1935, I believe. Cotten wrote about the memorable early incident in a newspaper column right after Welles' death concerning their inability to stop giggling over a line of dialogue referring to "barrels of pith". They remained friends until Welles' death in October, 1985. Reportedly, Cotten had given the manuscript of his autobiography ("Vanity Will Get You Somewhere") to Welles for proofreading shortly before Welles died; when no one could locate the manuscript after Welles' death, Cotten was forced to rewrite the whole thing from scratch.

[Tony]

May I politely reccommend you read some of the many bios on Welles; I would reccommend the Frank Brady book as an excellent well-rounded bio, and the Joeph McBride book as an excellent primer on Welles' work. Many of your questions will be answered, as will many more important questions you haven't asked.

[GM]

It would be difficult to find out for certain what Welles's IQ was measured at, but if you Google search on 'Welles IQ', you'll pull up an 'Orson Welles Quiz' which claims that at school his IQ was measured at 146. Way above average, but well short of genius level.

[Glenn Anders]

GM: As anyone knows who has taught, and had access to student records, it is not your IQ but what you do with it that counts. Welles had that combination of ability, drive, interest, and creative spirit that allowed him to soar above the ranks of MENSA.

Still, if at all accurate, an IQ of 146 is pretty good mental equipment.

Glenn

[GM]

No question about that. When people refer to Welles as a 'genius', they're undoubtedly talking about creative genius, which is a matter of opinion and hardly measurable. Welles went along with the label for publicity purposes, but probably thought of it the same way that Edison did: 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. As he is quoted in the Leaming book: "The word 'genius' was whispered into my ear the first thing I ever heard when I was still mewling in my crib, so it never occured to me that I wasn't one until middle age!"

[Glenn Anders]

A wry and sad comment of self-understanding, GM.

Glenn

[Orson&Jazz]

O.k. Thank you, now I know who Irving is.


Yes, you may reccommend books! The books I have read so far of Orson was the one by Barbara Leaming, the one by Brett Woods[sp?], that one I kind of skimmed through, and I skimmed through some others. Thomson's I believe, I kind of stopped reading his because it gave off a negative vibe to me. Others I skimmed through are, the encyclopedia one by Berg, and Noble's, The Fabulous Welles I believe, I'm not sure. Oh, I used inter-library loans to obtain these books, so I really didn't have much time to fully read them before I had to ship them back! I am now in the process of reading This Is Orson Welles, and this book I do own, which I am finding to be a little more impressive. It is strictly from a directorial perspective; interesting if you're a film-maker hopeful. But, I never read Brady's or McBride's, I must now.


'Barrels of pith"? That sounds like a great story. Sounds like Cotton and Welles have been friends for ages! I think I read some where that all the while they were friends, they never once had a fight. This I find kind of hard to believe. :p


The genius would be hard to measure. But 146 while he was in school; that's amazing. I certainly wouldn't object to his creative genius. Also, I think Orson had an massive indomitable spirit, something that only occurs in a minority of people. These are the ones that keep going no matter what obstacles are in their path. It is noticable just by looking at the length of time it took him to film Othello, when others would have easily quit. So, I stubbornly object to this label of him as a quitter. He was indomitable. And if Othello is not a good example of his 99% perspiration, I don't know what is!

[maxrael]

Roger Ryan wrote:

Reportedly, Cotten had given the manuscript of his autobiography ("Vanity Will Get You Somewhere") to Welles for proofreading shortly before Welles died; when no one could locate the manuscript after Welles' death, Cotten was forced to rewrite the whole thing from scratch

i'm sorry, but i laughed out loud when i read that! (causing people to stare at me in the office!)... i mean it must've been awful for Joe to have to rewrite it, but it's just such as typically orson story... i love it!

[GM]

I agree with Orson & Jazz that "Othello" is probably the greatest example of Orson Welles's 99%, of how his courage and tenacity went hand-in-hand with his genius. And he reportedly paid a heavy price for it too. There was a very good program made by Canadian TV about 10 years ago with the late Suzanne Cloutier reminiscing about the experience of making Othello with Welles. She relates how Orson began the project full of energy and enthusiasm, but by the end he was burned out both physically and mentally, drinking too much, smoking too much, and eating too much. She said it was an experience that he never fully recovered from, and made him realize there were limits to human endurance.

[Knowles Noel Shane]

I just watched a TV bio which stated Welles smoked Cuban cigars. They are still reputely the finest in the world. Welles was primarily a European gypsy at the time, so he could buy a Havanah.

Welles was 6 feet 4 inches tall - the same height as John Wayne and Bill Clinton!

Oh, I see why the old thread got locked - it really had gotten pretty crummy. Stop your potty mouth, you bad boy Jaime you! I don't know why the "Houseman wrote Kane" thread was locked. I was going to post that Houseman DIDN'T write Kane - Maurice Bessy did!

As for books for Orson & Jazz to read, I'd suggest (though this isn't unanimously favoured by the board) Simon Callow's Road to Xanadu. Even though I disagreed with Callow's conclusions about Welles, I found the work exceptionally well researched and written. Callow is truly a fan, I believe, as evidenced by his sympathetic and reverential BBC radio series.

Welles seems to have been at least conversational in several languages. I suspect he spoke Spanish and French, maybe Italian and German too.

There's a list of his favourite films in one of the books, I'd have to figure out which one. It seemed to have the same ones film critics always say are the ten best.

Since it was Jerry Lewis' birthday a few days ago (he's 79 I think, Happy Birthday!) I watched The Ladies Man, especially to see the scene with Jerry putting the hat on the gangster's head (the "c" is for killer.) I think I had an attack like Orson described when he saw it (or when he saw W. C Fields for that matter) - I was crying so hard I couldn't see or even breathe.

As for the favourites of his own films, he thought Chimes at Midnight was his best, with The Trial being a close second. He also found The Trial to be terribly funny. As I've posted before, I found The Trial to be the cinematic equivalent of the worst case of the flu I ever had - but it is also pretty funny if you're in the right frame of mind - depends on how you sublimate that paranoid nervousness the film imparts. If Orson didn't like to see his films, there's a couple reasons he mentioned - he didn't like to see himself on the screen (it made him uncomfortable) and if he saw anything else he'd like to change, he couldn't, since it was already in the can and "dead."

I don't think Orson had much of a relationship with his brother Richard - who seemed to be the opposite of Orson mentally. There's a photo of the two of them, Richard as a boy placidly stacking Orson's blocks, with Orson as a toddler looking on with an expression like "why must I suffer this idiot?" There are several weird stories about Richard going around financially capitalizing on his brother's fame. I've read too about Orson providing financial assistance for his brother, who apparently was institutionalized at least once. It's a sad and touchy subject, and about as strange as Elvis Presley having an identical twin brother who was stillborn. Some author (as usual, I forget) has suggested that the stuttering of the character Silence in Chimes at Midnight was based on Richard's own speech impediment.

Of his favourite authors, I've heard Isak Dinesen was his favourite. Wasn't The Immortal Story a Blixen story? The Dreamers was, certainly, though the film version of that was left unfinished.

Of his stage productions, Around the World was his favourite. Judging from the radio version done in 1946 it certainly was a hoot. It's called a disaster because it lost a lot of money, but that shouldn't be the only criteria.

What about pineapple juice? "Buzz off with Buzzo" is all I can think of, and that's me being left-brained again.

[Orson&Jazz]

Thanks Knowles! I love getting information. Wow, Orson was a TALL man!


What TV bio was it where you got the cigar information from?


As for "Buzz off with Buzzo"...what? I don't get it? Is this an inside joke? If it is, I want in.

[Glenn Anders]

Good work, Knowles, though I prefer Frank Brady's book or even Barbara Leaming's (for certain very personal reactions from Welles) to Callow's book. I'm looking forward to Joseph McBride's biography, which I understand from Larry French is to be published soon.

I might add that Welles had a relationship with his older brother, Richard Ives Welles, which he was at some pains to conceal, but which shadowed his whole life, and may have had more of an influence on his art than is generally remarked. He supported his brother much of his life, perhaps because their father more-or-less disowned the older boy for not measuring up, and redistributed his estate in Orson's favor. As I understand it, Richard was living in San Francisco on a stipend from his younger brother, when he died in 1975.

For further details, you might look at my review of Richard Hickenlooper's botched production of THE BIG BRASS RING, which appears to be, in a psychological sense, about their relationship:

http://www.epinions.com/content_28860059268

Glenn

[Knowles Noel Shane]

Thank you Glenn! I didn't know that Orson supported Richard to that extent, but I do recall reading about old Dick redistributing the inheritance.

Orson&Jazz, the "Buzzo" line comes from an episode of the Harry Lime radio series entitled "Buzzo Gospel," which Orson wrote, and in which Lime, at this stage in his career a promoter for a soft drink company, winds up involved in silly political shenanigans on some island somewhere. "Buzz Off with Buzzo" was the slogan for the soft drink. As I recall, he rewrote the story into a play, which, if I'm not mistaken, was called The VIP (nothing to do with the movie of the same name.) My question to you is - what about pineapple juice? I don't remember coming across that in my Orson research.

Oh, the TV bio mentioning the cigars was from a series called Camera Three, from 1967. I think it was from US television, though I don't know which network aired it.