more lists, more lists - you kids and your lists

[jaime marzol]

i think you can find the afi's top 500 in deja, or with google.

[LA]

S'OK.

Haven't been able to find a top 500 for the original AFI poll, but I have found an AFI Top 400. As with the 100, some reasonable choices (some of which, IMHO, should have made it to the 100 list), and then there are some utterly inane choices. What is THE LION KING doing anywhere near a list of the greatest American films of all time? And Richard Fleischer's 20, 000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA?!
There were some good films in the Top 400 that should have made the 100, though. They had the raw material for a better Top 100 than they ended up with.

Re: gangster movies, my list is pretty similar to yours, but I would also include most of the 30s Warner gangster movies, such as THE PUBLIC ENEMY, and Raoul Walsh's THE ROARING TWENTIES. The montage sequences in THE ROARING TWENTIES are amazing, and of course there's the ending.

Re: Mad Scientists and Dwarfs, I can't think of many films I've seen, apart from the FRANKENSTEIN series, that have mad scientists and dwarfs in them, let alone mad scientists and dwarfs torturing naked women.

Re:Preminger, THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN ARM is great, lots of amazing camera movement which must have needed endless preparation to make it seem so effortless, the camera seems to fly. WHERE THE SIDEWALK ENDS is on my must-see list.

As I've typing this, I've been looking down the Top 400, and I have one more thing to say: JERRY MAGUIRE?! I hope they weren't really serious. At least it didn't get onto the 100 list.

[jaime marzol]

yes, the warner's pre-noir gangster films are great, PUBLIC ENEMY, LITTLE CEASER, SCARFACE, have seen a few lesser ones, THE BIG SHOT with bogart is excellent. there are 2 with walter huston that were also good.

SCARFACE is a pleasure to watch. hawks was the man.

[jaime marzol]

ROARING 20s has heavy noir elements before that look was popular.

[LA]

Re: ROARING TWENTIES, yes, it has quite a few noirish shots, and the pessimism of the ending is very noir: the gangster is killed not because he was a gangster, but because, after the end of his time at the top, he went back to redeem himself.

[Welles Fan]

Jaime: I'm kinda surprised at your appreciation of INHERIT THE WIND, to the point of wanting it on an AFI-type list. ITW is, IMO just a long speech-a-fying, preach-a-fying mess. It's based on the Jerome Lawrence/Rob't E Lee play, and all their plays (IMO) are just collections of didactic speeches, usually addressing the issues of the day (at the time the plays were written). (That said-I have favorite films that interest me for reasons other than their merit. For example, I am a history buff, and sometimes a movie will interest me because of the period in which it is set, or because the art direction is so good. I've seen that Al Pacino movie REVOLUTION about 3 times. Yes, it sucks, and is incredibly badly cast, and has a terrible script, but what a handsome production!).

I liked a lot of the rest of your list, though. I think I'd add MY DARLING CLEMENTINE to the westerns list, and RED RIVER to the Hawks list, while losing EL DORADO.

I think the trouble with lists like the AFI is the attempt to please too many people (like Spielberg still among the living), special interest groups, etc, to the point of having a list with no real criteria for inclusion.

Jeff-Do check out SCHINDLER'S LIST. I saw it with misgivings, having always hated Spielberg's attempts at drama, but I found it quite moving. More importantly, it was uplifting after a while. I remember watching is thinking "I can't take much more of this inhumanity", but at a certain point, the film shifts gears and becomes an affirmation of humanity.

Every time I try to make such a list, it gets too long, and my lists always consist of too much adventure stuff like Errol Flynn's ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD, or GUNGA DIN or THE MARK OF ZORRO. It's easy for me to diss one of Jaime's picks while not offering up one of my own.

[jaime marzol]

welles fan:
absolutely draw up a list. lists are great. i think a person's personal list should not be the films he thinks are the best films made, but the films that are the best films for him, and that is what makes them fun and interesting, and will give your readers new clues on where to piss away their rental dough and not feel ripped off.

AND i am a die-hard errol flynn fan. the curtiz/walsh cycle of flynn adventure films are excellent.

INHERIT THE WIND has given me hours of enjoyment. it has great framing, great writing, great story, great acting, like GLENN GARY GLENROSS, it has a lot of artistry just beneth the surface, and though i was not raised as a church going type, or bible reading type, i love all that fire & brimstone religious stuff. it's one of the reasons i get such great pleasure from, and have read the screenplay to, NIGHT OF THE HUNTER, which if it''s not on my list, it belongs there.

RED RIVER, and MY DARLING CLEMENTINE were an oversight, they absolutely belong on my list. agreed with losing EL DORADO.

[LA]

"i think a person's personal list should not be the films he thinks are the best films made, but the films that are the best films for him, and that is what makes them fun and interesting"

Agreed. OK, here's a quick list of a few favorite noirs I would include on a best noir list, in chronological order. I agree with a lot of your picks, but I haven't included them to avoid repetition:

THE WOMAN IN THE WINDOW (Fritz Lang, 1944)
OUT OF THE PAST (Jacques Tourneur, 1947)
KISS OF DEATH (Henry Hathaway, 1947)
CAUGHT (Max Ophuls, 1949)
THE BIG COMBO (Joseph H. Lewis, 1955)
and (although perhaps it's not 100% noir) TIME WITHOUT PITY (Joseph Losey, 1956).


Of course, I may well disagree with half of these tommorow.

[LA]

....I knew I'd disagree with myself later! Now I can't believe I mentioned THE BIG COMBO and not THE RECKLESS MOMENT.

[jaime marzol]

not repeating what has already been posted, other excellent noirs worth seeking out:
robert wise the set up, born to kill
von sternberg, UNDERWORLD
nick ray, IN A LONELY PLACE, THEY LIVE BY NIGHT
soidmak CRISS CROSS, DARK MIRROR, THE KILLERS
negulesko ROADHOUSE
preminger ANGEL FACE*********
huston ASPHALT JUNGLE
kubrik KILLER'S KISS, THE KILLING
rudy matte, DOA
ingster, STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR
JOSEPH H LEWIS, BIG COMBO, GUN CRAZY********
lang of course, about 10 great noirs
the big clock
kiss me deadly
the racket 9cinematography
the big combo (cinematography ************)
HOUSE OF STRANGERS ***********

i can't think any more