The Lilly Library - questions and concerns

[Store Hadji]

This is directed towards those of you who have actually accessed the place. I'm wondering about the holdings, what's there, and if we can make copies of the memos and acetates or whatever. I've also heard that one needs to be a paying member to even gain entrance. I'm not too geographically displaced from it and am contemplating a sojourn. Maybe I'll become as fine a Welles scholar as our Jeff when I grow up!

[Jeff Wilson]

You can access the Lilly's Welles holding from their web site. Just do a search with "welles" and "lilly" and it should be the first thing to come up. They will make copies of more or less any of the paper material, but scripts are limited to a total of ten pages due to copyright reasons. They make the copies for you, and you fill out a sheet with the requisite information (box #, folder #, etc). Copies are 30 cents a page. They will copy tapes if it can be cleared with the copyright holders, so good luck in that regard. Acetates apparently have to be transferred to tape before being copied, and that won't happen unless you want to lay out bigtime cash. Prints of photos can be made, but if there is no existing negative of the print you want, it'll cost a lot more to do.

You don't need any kind of membership or to pay a fee to access the collection, but you need to complete a brief registration process the first time you go. After that, you fill out a slip with what you want to look at and they bring it out for you. There are simple rules to follow as to handling the materials as well. It's well worth visiting to look at the treasure trove of materials, but have an idea of what you want to see before you go. It helps immeasurably to have a plan of attack, so to speak.

[Lee Gordon]

It reminds me of the Thatcher Library...
rare privilege, have to use pencils only in the great room ...

[Jeff Wilson]

I don't blame them for the strict rules, considering the rare nature of the items and the thieving nature of some people. I just got done reading a book called The Island of Lost Maps, about a guy who went to various academic libraries to cut maps out of rare books, which he then sold. Most of these libraries had extremely lax security, despite the value of their holdings. After reading that, I had no problem with the Lilly's policies. The other option is keeping the collections closed to the public.

Besides, the Lilly's reading room is much more hospitable than the Thatcher, and the staff are certainly friendlier...

[Store Hadji]

A question about copyright - I'm wondering about public domain, if things like old newspaper articles and radio shows were automatically public domain at the time of their printing or airing or if they need to lapse out of the original copyright after twentyseven years unless the original copyright owner renews it. Isn't The Stranger in public domain now, meaning that anyone can sell copies of it? Are the old Mercury broadcasts still owned by CBS, or Beatrice, or what? There seem to be lots of sets of radio shows available commercially.

Aint Bea does seem to be actively blocking things, here's what Sid had to say about his thwarted Welles book:

Sorry I didn't respond to your question about the Welles Estate. This seems
like ancient history to me -- very painful ancient history -- but yes, I did
have some problems trying to work out arrangements to get their permission to
proceed with my book. Frustration over that has led me to put the book on
hold for these past few years, but I actually do feel somewhat condfident
that I'll be able to work things out with them when I get back to them:
hopefully with a finished manuscript that I can put in their hands. At some
point I'll tell you the story in more detail, but not right now, since I'm
trying to keep my blood pressure down! The story has become so convoluted and
legendary that I was actually contacted by a writer from a German magazine to
add my story to those of several others who had "horror" stories to tell
about dealing with the Welles Estate! My experience hasn't been totally
negative, but it has been (I think) needlessly difficult. More later.

[Fat Annie]

An article should be written for an English speaking audience on the same subject.

[Jeff Wilson]

The radio shows are a difficult question. There's this guy named Carl Amari, who started the Radio Spirits company that sells most all of those sets you see. He claimed to have bought the copyrights to virtually all of the extant radio programs of any note back in the 70s or 80s, and was pursuing people making copies for sale a few years back. Searching the web should reveal plenty of info about this; it's quite a sore point with OTR enthusiasts. If Amari's claims are true, Radio Spirits (since bought by some corporation) may own the rights to some/all Welles shows. If Radio Spirits doesn't own them, then I would think they are public domain IF the original network never renewed copyrights. Or they belong to someone else if they bought the copyrights. As I was told at the Lilly, tracking down the copyrights on the radio shows is extremely difficult.

And I really feel for Gottlieb; I can only imagine the shit he was put through. Hopefully his book will get published someday.

[Oscar Christie]

Re: The Lilly,

Has anyone checked out the John Ford papers which are also housed in the Lilly? Is the Ford collection as extensive as the Welles?
I'm interested in Liberty Valence and the Wagon Master.

[blunted by community]

oscar, it's not john ford papers that are interesting, it's the john ford tapes, 82 of them. on cassettes. our interests lie in the same ford movie. i listened to the john wayne comments on the liberty valance tape. by liberty valance ford was weak and ford felt wayne tried to shove him aside and take over the picture.

also wayne bittely complained when ford tried to take out that scene where he walks in that office towards the end and tells stewart he needs to get out there and run for office because it was wayne that killed valance. i can't imagine ford trying to take out that scene except maybe to piss off wayne.

wayne said, "the whole movie all i do is walk around and act tough, and here is this one scene where i get to act and he wants to cut it out.

wayne used words like , "shit," and even "m*ther F*cker"

hadji, anything that is not creative writing is available from lili. they own it, you pay their tiny charge to publish. i forgot the exact amount but remember thinking it was tiny.

on welles creative writing you have a 10 page limit per day. and you can't get 1-10 today, and 11-20 tomorrow.

they have a huge selection of screenplays with no limit on pages, and some welles stuff is in that part of the collection.

no pens, you can't order pizza and cokes while you are there. you have to keep your shoes on. and if you smoke pot you have to go to the microfilm room. no pot smoking in the main room.




wayne said that

[Glenn Anders]

Dear Jeff: In the early 1960's, I started buying Welles' Radio shows, on reel-to-reel tape, from an outfit called Radio Yesteryear, at Croton-on-Hudson, N.Y. They claimed to be custom transcribing from original glass and acetate air checks. They were bought out by Amiri's Radio Spirits, who then had or put everything on casettes. A couple of years ago, Amiri retired and sold his operation, and the new management is now is putting everything on CD.

My guess is that the original copywrights have expired, but the process of transferring the material from one format to another may protect companies like Radio Spirits.

Welles complained about how much of his stuff was bootlegged, but on the other hand, if the Radio Yesteryear types had not collected the glass discs in the 1950's, we would not have it. The shows would have been lost. As it is, thousands of hours of many shows are gone.

The later companies have done some restoration work on many of the shows, eliminating static, minor goofs, and groove clicks, anathema to purists, perhaps, but easier on the ears of modern listeners, and closer to the original experience. Bringing up the bass a bit is usuallly helpful, too.

Glenn