Mary Pacios' Accusations - is this a taboo subject?

[Orson&Jazz]

I don't know if I'm treading on a subject that is forbidden or taboo on this forum. So, I am not sure if this topic will be locked immediately or not. I never seen this subject brought up before, but yet I haven't been here long either. If it was discussed previously, I'm sorry for bringing it up again.

I had read a little blurb of it on IMDb long ago, but it was only recently I decided to look into it more.

In my quest to read more into her accusations, I came across information I wish I hadn't seen. Her accusations are really absurd, yet they have the ability to really irritate the hell out of me. Why it bugs me the way it does I don't know. But it does; this woman aggravates the hell out of me! In pariticular her self-diagnosis of Orson having "diphasic personality."

This nonsense of hers lurks over the web, and even though many have debunked her theories, Orson is still associated with it. These false accusations of hers have made it possible for people not familiar with Orson Welles to view him in a negative light. It gives them reason to doubt him and his legacy.


I really admire Orson and I hate for his name to be dragged around in something as grave as that. I do not believe any thing about Orson that spouts from her lips, but yet her ramblings have really pinched a nerve in my body, in particluar these websites have irked me. If you view them, you can see why they aggravate me the way they do. Especially what she had claimed in the court tv article.

http://dir.salon.com/books/feature/2000/08/16/dahlia/index.html


http://www.courttv.com/news/hiddentraces/sidebars/famous_ctv.html




Has anyone ever read her book out of curiousity just to read for themselves the accusations she had made?

If no one here has, I can fully understand why no one has the urge to even read such trash.

[Harvey Chartrand]

Why bring this up?
This muck was dismissed as a false and uncorroborated accusation five years ago.
Why this slander was ever given any credence by the press is beyond me.
Why does the word "taboo", like the word "discrimination", now always have negative connotations? In this "anything goes" culture, a taboo is always something to be broken. I think this society would do well to reflect on the fact that some subjects are best avoided. In Canada, we are told that a cartoon of Pope Benedict XVI giving the Hitler salute to the Virgin Mary and shouting "Heil Mary" is "satire" (www.rabble.ca). I don't think so.
Accusing Orson Welles of rape and murder (without any tangible or even circumstantial evidence) is another topic that should be "off limits," especially on the message board of a website set up in his honour.

[Orson&Jazz]

I brought it up because it bugged me. I was angry at what I read. I never knew about this five years ago; I just really read about it recently, so the anger was still fresh in my mind.


And yes, slander. That is why it infuriated me, because she had the gall to slander Orson. And what really ticks me off is that this nonsense still floats around the web and elsewhere.


I was shocked and furious what I read and I decided to come here and vent. I needed to vent. I knew it was a sensitive subject, but yet my anger at the time over rided my common sense; so I posted it.


Now that I had time to cool off about what I read regarding this issue, I regret posting about it. It is an "off-limits" topic and I'm sorry for bringing it up.

[Maury]

--- and if you're going to annoyingly include the same quote with every single posting (why?), you really should find out how to spell Joe Cotten's name - especially here! -- I wouldn't care if it burned me!!

[Wilson]

It's not off limits, but it has been covered before. As a suggestion to anyone posting, please do a quick search before starting topics, as we've obviously covered many different Welles-related topics here over the last four-plus years. Just set your search parameters from the beginning of the board. And in the interests of being precise, the nutjob accusing Welles of the Black Dahlia murder was committing neither slander (which is spoken accusations) or libel (which is written, as in this Dahlia case), as you cannot libel the dead.

[Gus Moreno]

Old tierranet thread

[Orson&Jazz]

aggie:

That annoying quote is my signature, so it will be included in my posts automatically. Besides, I like it. I did not notice I spelled Cotten's name wrong. I fixed it.



I did do a search regarding this topic here before I tried posting it. I guess my search was not precise enough, and I did not set it for the begining of the board. I guess that is why I missed the threads discussing it. I agree with you Wilson in that she is nutjob.



Thank you GM for the link. I was able to bring it up and view the discussion regarding this topic. It helped.

[Wilson]

Actually, the previous discussion here may have occurred in the initial period that the board was operative, and that data was later lost.

For a fictional look at the Dahlia murder, with Welles as a character and suspect, check out the Max Allan Collins novel called Angel in Black.

[Glenn Anders]

And for a better novel on the subject, one that has some conceivable factual basis, try James Elroy's Black Dahlia. He is obsessed by the subject because his mother was herself murdered, in an unsolved case, about the time Elizabeth Short was found.

But, Orson & Jazz, I must agree with Wilson, Harvey and aggie: If you were "infuriated" at the "slander," why bring up the woman's insinuations and give them currency?

As we can see on this site, the most outrageous and absurd things are often said in regard to Welles.

Why not, just as well, wonder if there is any truth to a notion that Welles was really a little green man from Mars?

There are so many more factual and intriguing links to explore in a study of Welles and his works.

Glenn

[etimh]

I think all of you old-timers need to check your attitudes a bit. This self-righteous indignation of legitimate curiosity is really bad message board form. Okay, so someone is new and has not really checked every thread to see if the topic has been discussed previously--maybe THEY wanted to have a discussion about it with others. Not just read the out of date opinions of past posters. If you don't want to revisit the topic, then shut up and stay out of it. And what is this about 'taboo' and 'off-limits' topics? This is absurd. Generally I would say that any topic is up for discussion and particularly in the forum 'GENERAL DISCUSSION'!!!!! You oldsters should relax and consider your role as facilitators and educators and not jump to berate anyone who is curious about a given subject. Okay, bring it on.....

[Glenn Anders]

You have a point, etimh, and if my above remark disturbed any young comers to the site, I apologize. I did not mean my entry to hurt feelings, and I don't believe that GM, aggie, Harvey, or Wilson intended to do so either.

It is just that, in this particular case, an allegation without foundation, we are looking at a manifestation of the renewal of tabloid journalism (on the Internet and on TV, now, the counterparts of Kane's sensational newspapers). In our family and public life, in our politics, foreign policy, and media, we are well into a period when the widespread trivialization of facts is seriously damaging our society. On our present course, our perceptions begin to resemble a renewal of the McCarthy Period, or the situation in Orwell's 1984 where history was constantly re-written to more easily manipulate the confused citizenry.

Our lives and our beliefs are becoming "a reality show."

Welles was a man whose reputation and career while he lived were constantly damaged by malicious attacks in the press and media, many of them absolutely groundless. In addition, he is one of those rather rare individuals who has continued to be slandered and libeled with new allegations after his death, most of them made up of whole cloth -- like this one linking him to the death of Elizabeth Short.

Logic should tell us that, after "The Sleepy Lagoon Case," if the LAPD or the LA DA could have connected a maverick like Welles, unprotected by any Studio, to the death of Elizabeth Short -- to use the immortal words of Jed Leland -- it would have been "Oh Boy!" Internet files would be filled with old news articles and transcripts of interrogations.

My personal apologies to Orson & Jazz. I'll try to lighten up, but the larger subject is one that I care and worry about a lot.

Glenn

[etimh]

Glenn, thanks for the thoughtful and sincere response. Also, thank you for the insightful commentary about the subject which got this all started. I think that you guys who have been Welles scholars for awhile sometimes forget that others might not have the breadth of knowledge, or perhaps even the passion, to thoroughly catalog the abundance of accumulated information on Welles. I, for one, had not heard of the incident nor the controversy surrounding this woman that Orson&Jazz brought up. Those that were actually so bored with or hostile to the topic should have simply avoided the discussion. Then those of us that were interested could have had a thoughtful discussion. Or, if you were a veteran and were inclined to join, some intelligent history and context would have been useful. I know that I would have felt encouraged and motivated to explore the previous discussions if respectfully reminded that the issue had been addressed elsewhere. But nothing is gained by insulting and badgering the uninititated. Unless you want this board to remain an insular community of self-absorption and an echo chamber of redundant dialogue, you'd better encourage new and fresh participation. Even if that means putting up with some tiresome inquiries and fostering some fans who are just beginning their investigation of Welles and his world. Tim

[Harvey Chartrand]

I beg to differ.
Are you actually stating that we should have a "thoughtful" discussion about a publicity-seeking woman's unfounded accusation that Welles committed a homicide in a manner that would have sickened Jack the Ripper? How preposterous is Mary Pacios' argument that a prop used in the funhouse scene in THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI reveals Welles' homicidal mania and misogynism.
I read James Ellroy's masterful novel THE BLACK DAHLIA (Brian De Palma is trying to film the book but can't raise the money for it; does this sound familiar?). The details of Elizabeth Short's sordid last days and unimaginable final hours are unspeakable.
If you want to believe that Orson Welles was capable of such a crime, be my guest.
Uh-oh, I think I hear Jeff Wilson coming down the hall with his lockdown device!

[marcoshark]

At first, reading the archive, I had to look and see if the Date was on or near April 1. I then thought that maybe someone from the old National Lampoon did this. I just cannot take Pacios' stuff seriously. Too funny if you ask me.

[jaime marzol]

i don't think the woman that made the accusation was a plublicity seeking anything. she made the accusation after seeing a publicity still from LADY FROM SHANHAI. the head welles painted was carved up like the black dahlia was carved up. she honestly thought welles did it. but the carved up design of the black dahlia and the head in the publicity still is not original to welles. welles ordered a lot of odd research materials and based his work in the funhouse on sketches and drawing hundreds of years old.

also, i don't know if any one mentioned it in this thread because i did not want to read all the injured, indignant posts, but the killer's son is a detective and proved it was his father that carved up the black dahlia. there is a tv segment about it. i saw it a while back on A&E. so orson is innocent. he was a victim of circumstance.