Five For The Ages: Orson Welles Stories from TriBeca Film Fe

[Harvey Chartrand]

The legend of Welles' downfall continues to enthrall as the stories of the Great One's humiliations in his later years are passed down the generations: in this case, Welles' misfortunes and foibles are a source of mirth to Zachary Wigon, an up-and-coming 22-year-old screenwriter whose latest script (More) is being filmed by the Belgian horror movie director Fabrice Du Welz (Calvaire, Vinyan – both very good films). Is it possible that a few decades from now Citizen Kane will be forgotten and the frozen pea commercial & drunken Paul Masson Wine outtakes & excessive chili dog consumption will be remembered whenever the name "Orson Welles" is mentioned in polite conversation? Then again, wasn't Welles brash and irreverent towards his elders when he was a wild young man with the fire in his belly – long before life beat him down?

[Magentarose67]

Is it possible that a few decades from now Citizen Kane will be forgotten and the frozen pea commercial & drunken Paul Masson Wine outtakes & excessive chili dog consumption will be remembered whenever the name "Orson Welles" is mentioned in polite conversation? ?

If that happened, I swear God must hate us all.

That would be painful...the though of that happening makes me sad. I think the chances of that happening are small, but it's sad to see the kind of jokes about Orson I see around the internet.

[Alan Brody]

There's no way that would ever happen. If Citizen Kane ever becomes a footnote in history, then Orson Welles will be nothing more then a footnote as well. On the other hand, if he really did consume 18 chili dogs (I love chili dogs, but WTF?), then he might be remembered as the "Babe Ruth" of movies. Or at least the Joey Chestnut.

[Magentarose67]

There's no that would ever happen. If Citizen Kane ever becomes a footnote in history, then Orson Welles will be nothing more then a footnote as well. On the other hand, if he really did consume 18 chili dogs (I love chili dogs, but WTF?), then he might be remembered as the "Babe Ruth" of movies. Or at least the Joey Chestnut.

As much as it breaks my heart, it's true .

I never believed that Pink's Hot Dog story. It just seems so unlikely to me. Maybe it was embellished and it was actually something like four hot dogs...I don't know.

[Alan Brody]

Chestnut did 68 this past year in 12 minutes (without the chili, but with the buns!), barely beating out his arch-rival, Kobayashi. So Orson's 18, while most impressive, would've been dwarfed by today's competitive eating standards. Still, I think most of us would probably be dead after 5 or 6. Orson's feat would probably be a record for a celebrity. Too bad someone didn't film it.

[nextren]

Welles was respectful of his elders in Hollywood, and they treated him well, he always said.

But of course age has nothing to do with it. There are a lot of hateful people in the world, of all ages. A large number are in Hollywood and, it seems, New York. No film of mine will be submitted to Tribeca. It often seems some of the people who hate cinema most are "filmmakers." It's hard to imagine Welles receiving this kind of treatment in Europe.

We should protest - not that any moron would ever care; but morons ought to face unexpected opposition now and then to throw them off their stride. How about it? I plan to send Zach a missive right now.

[mido505]

That Pink's Hotdog story is everywhere, and I found interviews on the web with Pink himself who confirms the story. Of course, he could be exaggerating. However, when I read this thread I vaguely recalled Merv Griffin having made some mention of Orson and Pink's; I managed to find the passage here: http://books.google.com/books?id=-7G83_ ... q=&f=false

In the passage, from Griffin's autobiography, he mentions driving past Pink's after a typically frugal lunch with Welles at Ma Maison, and seeing Orson's driver walking towards Orson's limo with a tray of twelve hot dogs.

Gary Graver also reports that he frequently ate with Welles and never saw him overindulge. But I also recall stories (perhaps in ORSON WELLES REMEMBERED) that report private, late night binges. My guess is that Welles, accutely conscious of his weight and the fat jokes, and knowing that his reputation for overindulgence and profligacy in his professional life would be reinforced among the credulous by public displays of gorging, deliberately and strategically made it a point to dine lightly when and where he could be seen.

[mido505]

Nextren:

That Tribeca article is garbage, but I am willing to give the author a pass because item number one on his list is a genuinely serious paean to F FOR FAKE. I fell in love with FAKE when I first saw it as a wide-eyed sixteen year old, and I love it more every year. On certain days I might even agree that it is Welles's best film. It is certainly extraordinary, and I wish Welles had done more of those little essay films. At least Zach Wigon got that right.

[ToddBaesen]

To quote Orson Welles, "if I could censor something" I would censor this entire thread. The first post is totally untrue and absolute garbage and why anyone is even posting about such a ridiculous story, I have no idea.

I would ask Jeff Wilson to lock this idiotic thread, but since he is no longer the moderator, I would expect no one else reading this to to post here in any way shape or form, to give credence to such an idiotic fabrication.

To put it more bluntly... further posts here may be met with extreme scorn from the many friends of Orson Welles who frequent this site.

Or please consider this thread LOCKED!

[Harvey Chartrand]

Click on http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/80777/detail/ to access “an early '80s SCTV John Candy bit, based on a tape of the actual Orson Welles recording a British frozen-peas audio advertisement.”

Fifteen years after John Candy’s death, most people still “get the joke”. The image endures of a fat, bearded and black-garbed Welles demeaning himself by pitching frozen peas and other products.

And here’s a cheeky comment I found on Orson Welles Great Mysteries from Mystery File blog @ http://www.mysteryfile.com/blog/?p=300 – “The suitably haunting title music was by John Barry. Unfortunately, a very-unhaunting Orson Welles was brought in to introduce the stories, garbed in a black, swirling cloak and a slouch hat (suggesting the appearance of Oliver Hardy as The Shadow).”

It seems the image lodged in the public mind is of Old Orson rather than Young Orson.

[Alan Brody]

Fair enough, Todd, but if you feel the thread should be locked (and maybe it should) then why not just have Lawrence French lock it? Aren't you and Glenn friends with him? I'm sure Mr. French would listen to you guys.

I'm assuming you mean that the "friends of Orson Welles who frequent this site" are insulted by discussion of Welles's eating and drinking habits. But personally, I'm not really convinced that discussion of Welles's eating and drinking habits is really that much of an insult to his legacy. Many people have related how enthralled they were by Orson while having lunch or dinner with him, and the many stories about his eating prowess are part of what makes the Welles legend so much fun. The hot dog story was given credence by Welles's good friend Merv Griffin, so it might be true. So what? As Don Rickles said once, Orson Welles was about fun as well as about art. It seems apparent that he considered the dinner table to be another stage, and eating itself to be another performance art. One biographer (I can't remember who) even suggested that Welles, by getting fat, may have been modeling himself after GK Chesterton.

I guess what I was trying to imply above was that, if Orson Welles were not the man responsible for Citizen Kane and considered by many one of the great American artists of the 20th century, nobody would give a rip how many hot dogs he could eat, or how drunk or bad-tempered he was on a commercial set. It is because of the young Orson's achievements that the old Orson has any place in the public eye at all. We all know the old Orson did some great work too, but his many lowbrow TV appearances and tremendous girth have also left an indelible mark on the public's image of him. I was a teenager in the 70's, and I thought Welles was pompous myself. Whenever he came on TV, I lost interest. It was only after his death that I discovered the young Orson's greatness, and how much the old Orson's high-brow 'pompousness' on TV had a tongue-in-cheek quality to it.

Orson Welles created an enormous amount of great art, but let's face it, he created, or at least participated in, a sizeable amount of schlock too, and I think he had a certain amount of affection for the latter. It would be folly for us here at Wellesnet to pretend the schlock does not exist. Some of it's good schlock, some of it's embarrassing, but everyone has a different idea of which is which. But if we think we can somehow help move Orson Welles into the mainstream of American culture by suppressing discussion of any of the schlock he did, there ain't no way. And somehow I get the feeling Orson Welles wouldn't want us to either. He was a natural born rebel.

For me, the main problem with the Tribeca website is that they are trying to mix the schlock with the art. If that's what Orson Welles's friends who frequent this site are disgusted by, then I agree with them. The two should be kept seperate.

[mido505]

Keats is absolutely correct, and was right to post that article. And if just one person read that thing, rented F FOR FAKE, liked it, and told his or her friends, then the article, no matter what you think of the hotdog story, was a force for good.