Official OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND Thread - All things OSotW he

[etimh]

I know it has been proposed and discussed previously but the more I hear of Bogdanovich casually working to "complete" the film, the more I think that the existing material should just be edited into a documentary on the whole unfinished project.

Certainly, if anyone is even close to being qualified to "finish" the film it is Bogdanovich and Oja, but this still makes me uncomfortable and seems like yet another case of others taking the man's work and producing something that he never intended.

I have always dreamed of seeing this film completed, but I think I'm changing my mind about it.

Tim

[Roger Ryan]

...Certainly, if anyone is even close to being qualified to "finish" the film it is Bogdanovich and Oja, but this still makes me uncomfortable and seems like yet another case of others taking the man's work and producing something that he never intended...

You're certainly correct about this, but film-making, for the most part, is a collaborative art. As for Welles' films, all of these have been completed or altered by others with varying degrees of adherence to the creator's original intentions:

THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS
JOURNEY INTO FEAR
FOUR MEN ON A RAFT
THE STRANGER
THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI
OTHELLO (specifically the version currently available on DVD)
MR. ARKADIN
TOUCH OF EVIL

One could also add the re-edited MACBETH which Welles was obligated to alter himself. This is fully half of what we have from Welles the producer/director; should this half be excised from the canon because the films were edited without Welles' full participation?

It's possible that THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND did not progress further than it did in post-production because Welles realized his experiment in improvisation wasn't paying off. A final cut completed by Welles in the 70s might have been terrible; the same goes for one completed now. But we won't know unless someone attempts to put it together. Whatever the result, it will still be a film written and directed by Welles (and completed by others) just like the films I listed above.

[mteal]

etimh wrote:
...Certainly, if anyone is even close to being qualified to "finish" the film it is Bogdanovich and Oja, but this still makes me uncomfortable and seems like yet another case of others taking the man's work and producing something that he never intended...


You're certainly correct about this, but film-making, for the most part, is a collaborative art.

I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't a significant part of TOSOTW in fact written and directed by Oja Kodar? I seem to remember Jonathon Rosenbaum describing the film as 'very much a collaborative work with Oja."

On the other hand, it was Oja who chose Jess Franco to complete DON QUIXOTE, a mess of a film that some might want to try and sneak onto your list above, Roger. And we already know what Beatrice thinks about the idea of letting 'Daddy's girlfriend' finish his last film.

[Roger Ryan]

You're right, Mike - I should have included DON QUIXOTE on that list. In fact, that's the one that proves no one should mess with Welles' work! But I think that FOUR MEN ON A RAFT provides a good corollary: this was based on footage shot by Welles but for a completely different context (same as QUIXOTE); however, the result illuminates Welles' keen eye for composition and his skill in eliciting performances from non-performers. With some reservations (namely the music track chosen), I feel the short is a worthy addition to the Welles canon and clearly demonstrates his talent. This is why I included it in the list; these films are important works (one could argue that TOUCH OF EVIL and THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI are the two most recognizable Welles films after KANE) and I think it's premature to say that a completed version of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND wouldn't be an acceptable entry in that list.

[Jay]

I thought that The Stranger was completed by Welles and released without any outside interference. I certainly could be mistaken about this, but if it is indeed the case that the film was altered and taken out of Welles' hands, what's the story?

[Roger Ryan]

Actually, I believe the cut prologue was a dream sequence involving Loretta Young's character that foreshadows much of the action. The dream imagery continued throughout the film which Edward G. Robinson was meant to comment on ironically by wishing Young "sweet dreams" in his closing line. The line doesn't make any sense now since all the dream material was removed. Some of the South American material remains in the film, but much is gone (including a whole section involving the female spy being murdered). As evidence that Welles was not given final cut on THE STRANGER, I'd present how the long tracking shot that follows the female spy down the dock ramp now features a hackneyed dissolve inserted midway through. Presumably, this was an attempt to shorten the action, but there's no way Welles would have planned a shot like that and then deliberately truncated it during editing in that fashion.

[mteal]

Welles claims that he shot those South American sequences mentioned, but to my knowledge, no footage or photographs remain of them to prove it. Maybe there is a cutting continuity somewhere, but I think most of the butchering on that film was done at the script level, before the film was shot, including that long Freudian dream sequence (a 'la Hitchcock's SPELLBOUND) which actually came later in the script. I believe there was a pre-credit prologue cut from the film, but it was a copy of the climactic shot of Loretta Young walking through the cemetery to kill Kindler, followed by a shot of someone falling from the tower. Another example of Welles putting the end at the beginning.

I think it's premature to say that a completed version of THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND wouldn't be an acceptable entry in that list.

Yes, it would certainly be better then what we have now, which is nothing but a few fragments here and there, and an endless stream of bullshit rumors we've been hearing for 20+ years now (hell, even Franco's DQ is better then nothing). If the people that own the rights to WIND have any brains, they'll have it ready by 2015, the Welles centennial. Otherwise, I predict we'll never see it.

[RayKelly]

If the people that own the rights to WIND have any brains, they'll have it ready by 2015, the Welles centennial. Otherwise, I predict we'll never see it.

I could put together a hell of wish list for a centennial DVD collection, beginning with the TV projects: Sketchbook, Around the World Gina, Fountain of Youth and Immortal Story

[Glenn Anders]

By checking our own Wellesnet entry for THE STRANGER, you come across the following statement: "For more details on the missing scenes in The Stranger, check out Bret Wood's article in Video Watchdog, issue #23, May-July 1994, which also contains a similarly themed article on The Lady From Shanghai." I once had a copy of Issue #23, and my memory is that it contained several stills from THE STRANGER, including at least one from the lost South American sequence.

But on the subject: By all accounts, the nearly complete negative of THE OTHER SIDE OF WIND footage does exist. I've seen two hours of out-takes that Stefan Droessler compiled, and Larry French has seen more. What remains is for the editors to be allowed to finish their job.

Glenn Anders

[Jay]

Thanks to everyone who provided the info on The Stranger. I had no idea, and I'm glad I do now (even though it's sad news, in that it's another example of outside influences corrupting Welles' vision).

[Roger Ryan]

Welles claims that he shot those South American sequences mentioned, but to my knowledge, no footage or photographs remain of them to prove it. Maybe there is a cutting continuity somewhere, but I think most of the butchering on that film was done at the script level, before the film was shot, including that long Freudian dream sequence (a 'la Hitchcock's SPELLBOUND) which actually came later in the script. I believe there was a pre-credit prologue cut from the film, but it was a copy of the climactic shot of Loretta Young walking through the cemetery to kill Kindler, followed by a shot of someone falling from the tower. Another example of Welles putting the end at the beginning.

I'm just going off memory, Mike, and I suspect you have a better grasp on this. No doubt much of the cutting was done at the scripting stage. I do think some of the evidence of tampering is on the screen. One can simply tell that the continuity is ragged in the South American sequence; it feels like Welles' intent was to get the audience involved in the foreign intrigue and then switch the locale to small town America with a dramatic change of tone. As it stands, the South American material is hurried along in a way that makes it feel inconsequential to the narrative. The number of dissolves in this section indicate that excerpts are being shown instead of full scenes. I'm not certain how Kindler was supposed to be shown in South America stumbling through baby coffins (as Welles has claimed), but it feels like Meinike (and the audience) is meant to believe that Kindler will be found somewhere in the southern hemisphere. The fact that he is hiding in America is meant to be a shock (note how Meinike pronounces "Connecticut" as if it was an unknown land). This idea remains, of course, but the impact appears to be lessened. Also, given the way Welles shoots the scene of Mary waking up later in the film, it feels like a climax to a longer (dream?) sequence. Again, I suspect that Welles would have come up with a different curtain line for Wilson if all of the dream material had been cut before shooting began. In typical misleading fashion, IMDb lists the U.S. version of THE STRANGER as being 115 minutes (the correct 95 minute length is noted first). Perhaps there is a grain of truth in that timing and that, in preview form, the film once existed with 20 additional minutes of footage.

Anyway, sorry about spending so much time talking about THE STRANGER! As Glenn points out, we can take solace in the fact that all of the footage shot for THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND exists; the caveat is that it appears that Welles didn't necessarily shoot enough to complete the film as written. All the same, if Nicholas Ray's rambling, fragmented (and, by design, amateurish) YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN can be finished and released, I think Welles' effort from the same period should see the light of day.

[mteal]

It's good to see this talk about THE STRANGER, but I think the subject deserves it's own thread, so I've gathered up the bits of conversation here and started a new one in the Stranger forum:

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2001

Thanks for the tip on the Ray film. Never heard of it, but his JOHNNY GUITAR is one of my all-time favorite movies, so I'll check it out.

Glenn wrote:
By all accounts, the nearly complete negative of THE OTHER SIDE OF WIND footage does exist. I've seen two hours of out-takes that Stefan Droessler compiled, and Larry French has seen more. What remains is for the editors to be allowed to finish their job.

That's what makes the whole thing so exasperating. The film itself is pretty much finished. Think of all the people in Hollywood who could piss on what it would take to simply put it together.

Ray wrote:
I could put together a hell of wish list for a centennial DVD collection, beginning with the TV projects: Sketchbook, Around the World Gina, Fountain of Youth and Immortal Story

Great idea. Maybe they could include the Munich Museum's "Orson's Bag" shorts as extras!

[admusicam]

It's the first time I write here, because I''m french and my english is bad...many thank for all the great informations in the site: one of the place on internet I return the most often!

The Other Side of the Wind is now one of the film I like much...but I never see it!!!
With the Locarno festival book, and with the extracts now on youtube, this film is a reality for many persons: we can really think about what it is. What please me in it is what it is: a dream that become slowly a reality, because from time to time I discover a scene of the film -with Welles cutting, without cutting, with another person cutting....-
For me, the best way to published the film is just to continue to post from time to time a new scene, a new shooting of it.Step by step everybody will reconstruct the film in his mind. It is somthing verry important in Welles art: he dream the architecture of his film, and want the person who see it to dream with him. At least, we can imagine a "complete publication" in dvd with absolutly all footage just as it come now, without cuting from anybody butthe few parts done by Welles......an you will discover on the net many cuttings by many persons in the future... it could be "the other side of the side of the other wind"!!!...
The same thing will be perfect for DQ;.......... but it make no money for nobody.......

Christophe

[mteal]

I like the way you put that, admusicam. I'm reminded a bit of Armond White's description of the unassembled WIND footage as "crypto-grammatic shards contemptuous of fitting into a larger mosaic." I think most of us still hope to see someone take a shot at creating that larger mosaic, though.

[etimh]

Watching the segments again, one thing that I think is really going to handicap the film's reception is the sound. Because of the passage of time not much is going to be able to be done in the way of looping or re-recording. Does anyone know if the party scene sound is just a scratch track, or was some dubbing done on it? The screening room scene seems pretty clean and who needs sound in Oja's scene, after all. I actually like the raw location sound in the clips but that might be all that is available to the editors. Not going to be too appealing to a lot of the contemporary audience.

Tim