Tribute to Orson Welles in Chicago

[fantomas]

mteal:

gary graver brought this short version on a dvd. unfortunately they had problems to show it because it was in the ntsc format and we couldn't hear the sound. i cannot say anything about this version but i agree that the long IT'S ALL TRUE documentary is somehow disappointing.

[mteal]

If I could trouble you for a couple of more questions, fantomas. First, could you say a bit about the documentary "Ich bin ein Maverick" which was shown at the fest? Interesting title.

Secondly - and this is not related to the fest - do you have any info on the German version of LADY FROM SHANGHAI that supposedly has different cutting and alternate takes? Thanks for any info.

[fantomas]

mteal:

"ich bin ein maverick" was the title of a lecture, not a documentary. the lecturer compared orson and picasso and named orson as the filmmaker who worked like a painter as independently like the european dogma filmers want to work. by the way: the text of this lecture plus some more texts, a lengthy interview with oja kodar and a filmography about the restored unknown films were published in an informative booklet with about 200 fotos.

i don't know anything about a different german version of LADY FROM SHANGHAI. in my eyes it's a legend that has no basis. the film was released by columbia in february 1950 in a dubbed version. the exact length is not known, some reviews say 85 minutes, others 81 minutes.

[Store Hadji]

Some of Richard Wilson's documentary "It's Not All True" was reused in the longer documentary, specifically the shots of Wilson and his wife. His short did not contain the Jangadeiros sequence as seen in Four Men on a Raft, but did have a couple more grainy shots of them that weren't used in the later one. It's been awhile since I've seen Wilson's version, but at the time I prefered the second one. I believed his version is still housed at the AFI.

[mteal]

fantomas,
That booklet sounds interesting, It would be nice to get ahold of a copy if any more of them are available. I agree that Welles was like Picasso - they both seemed to go through different artistic periods,constantly changing and expirimenting, which is one of the qualities of a great artist.

Stor Hadji,
On the old tierranet Welles board, there was a person (or persons) who referred to themselves as "?". This is the person who claimed that Wison's 22-minute version of "Raft" was superior to the 45 minute version in the IT'S ALL TRUE docu, which he called "blather". Maybe there are two Wilson films, the one you just mentioned and a 22-minute cut of "Raft". Then again, I probably shouldn't take anything from the old board too seriously.

[jaime marzol]

...............

mteal:
i think i read in the james naremore book on welles, that naremore many years before writing his book saw Lady From Shanghai in germany and he remembers it using different cuts. i don't know but i personally would attribute this to bad memory. the studios almost never had 2 or 3 versions floating around as distribution copies. they released one version and everything else usually got disposed of. we are lucky that in some cases other versions and footage was found, but the stuff is always found in studio vaults, not floating around in public domain versions.

after all i've read about what welles' cut of Lady From Shanghai was like, it's a loss as lamentable as Ambersons

[Harvey Chartrand]

How much did they cut out of Lady from Shanghai?
Does any of this footage still exist?
What are the chances of Shanghai being restored to its original length?

[Cole]

Hmmm… Harvey must know the answers to the questions he’s asking. Is he thinking what I’m thinking? How many subjects can we stack under this topic anyway?

I’ll add another one. Harvey, do you realize that I relied on your good name and picked up a copy of Hitchcock’s I Confess a couple weeks ago? Alas, I was quite disappointed with that one. It’s not a bad movie (it’s great under Hollywood standards), but it surely isn’t one of Hitchcock’s better films. I had to rent Vertigo again to reassure myself that Hitchcock could put out a good film – at least during that narrow window of time when he knew how to make a good movie. But I do agree with you on John Ford, at least based on the two movies of his that I’ve seen. I could barely keep my eyes open through Searchers (psychological drama, my ass) and Stagecoach I could only sit through because I was forced to watch it in a college course I took years ago regarding film appreciation. But after watching Stagecoach, I always wonder if the martinis I like to consume are as flammable as shown in that movie.

But to go back to Welles, now that I have the Corinth version of Mr. Arkadin that film really seems to “grow” on me. It also seems to be a likely candidate for a major restoration, Beatrice willing. Any major news on that front?

[mteal]

You're right, Cole, we have strayed quite a bit from the original topic of this thread. What was it again? Oh yeah, the Welles tribute in Chicago. Unfortunately, I'm going to be out of town on the 19th, so hopefully, some other Chicago-based Wellesnetter can get to it. Doubt if it would be any where near as good as the German fest anyway.

Jaime,
Jonathon Rosenbaum also mentions the German version of LADY FROM SHANGHAI in his new book MOVIE WARS. He didn't claim to have actually seen it, though. I haven't heard of anyone who claims to have seen it. It probably is just another groundless Welles-related myth, as fantomas says.

[Harvey Chartrand]

I confess that I may have unwittingly strayed too far from the thread topic, but this longer German version of The Lady from Shanghai sounds like the holy grail of lost films — and probably just as mythical as the fabled sword.
25 years ago, I read James Naremore's blow-by-blow account of the cuts made to Shanghai, and yet had no idea that as much (if not more) was cut from Shanghai as from Ambersons. Welles, I take it, had to mutilate his own work, but at least he directed the new scenes (mostly giant head shot inserts) and not some Columbia hired hand. But entire minutes of the amusement park scene were removed. What a great pity, because what is left is so charming. God knows what else ended up in the Pacific — or is stored somewhere, turning to dust.

[mteal]

I don't think the German version of Shanghai is supposed to be longer. It is merely supposed to have alternate takes and somewhat different cutting. The missing footage from Welles' original version was described by Bret Wood in a good Video Watchdog article a few years ago, along with the 20 minutes of missing footage from THE STRANGER. I don't think TLFS had as much taken out as Ambersons. In Barbra Leamings book, Welles says the studio took about 20 percent off the picture. He also hated the music they used.

[Jeff Wilson]

Welles utterly despised the music in LFS, forced upon him by Columbia, which was composed by Heinz Roemheld, a guy who appears to have been little more than a studio hack. I have a couple documents Welles sent to Columbia detailing his displeasure over the music, and it appears that Welles had a plan for the music similar to Touch of Evil - lots of diegetic sound, and music more indigenous to the settings. He also suggested what should have been done, similar to Touch, but was basically ignored. It's amazing the picture turned out as well as it did, considering everything.

The original scripted ending to LFS was also more interesting; in it, Michael urges Elsa to shoot herself with the final bullet in her gun; after Michael exits the funhouse, he hears a single gunshot. The Hays Office nixed that ending because it meant Michael got away with murder, in their eyes.

I would also agree that Shanghai didn't have nearly the destruction wreaked upon it that Ambersons did; looking at the script, I was expecting huge swaths of dialogue and story hacked out, but that wasn't really the case. While Welles re-wrote much of the dialogue and there are trims which may have been Welles and may have been the studio, most of the scenes themselves are there. The film wasn't gutted like Ambersons, certainly.



Edited By Jeff Wilson on Oct. 25 2002 at 09:38

[Store Hadji]

Orson said Shanghai was virtually as he cut it - he just missed what they removed from the funhouse scene. I've read in the Naremore book about the long version, but can't match up James' account with Orson's statement to Peter. As to the music - well, I like the scene with Rita singing "Please Don't Kiss Me." My Gods, what a gorgeous woman. And as to a Richard Wilson cut of Four Men on a Raft, I've never seen it - only his documentary. Hell, let's have Jess Franco see if he can screw it up, maybe interpolate it into some crappy lesbo movie.

[jaime marzol]

.................

orson had a bad memory. i think we all tend to forget horrible experiences. in the brady book he has a ful account of orson's problems with viola wills during the editing of lady from shanghai. it was considerably longer than it is today, and welles had done some experimental stuff, mixing ocean sounds with god knows what.

[mteal]

Wasn't able to make it to the Orson Welles Gala. Interesting that there was very little write-up on it in any of the Chicago papers. It was a fundraiser for the Pickwick Theatre sponsored in part by an "Orson Welles Society" that's apparently in the works. The Chi Reader does say that Jeffrey Lyons of NBC, who did commentaries for the recent "Citizen Welles" DVD package, was the one who presented the award to Beatrice, and that the panel discussion featured Larry Lichty, Ron Falzone, Bruce Ingram, and Susan Doll. I don't know anything about any of these people. Does anyone here?