"Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

Discuss notable examples of cursed or butchered films
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Wellesnet
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"Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

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http://nerdist.com/review-fantastic-fou ... dimension/
In the history of cinema, there are actually quite a few films, by both great filmmakers and not-so-great ones, that have gone unfinished for one reason or another. Orson Welles, famously, was nearly done with The Other Side of the Wind when the money ran out; Stanley Kubrick had done all the prep work for an epic about Napoleon Bonaparte but never actually got to make it; Terry Gilliam has had such trouble getting his Don Quixote project done that there’s actually a documentary made about it. I bring these up because, generally, unfinished films either don’t get released or they get finished by someone else if they have to be released. 20th Century Fox’s Fantastic Four is somehow both completely unfinished and yet still deemed suitable for people to see.
Director Josh Trank trashes the studio's release version:
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/07/fa ... rank-tweet
"A year ago I had a fantastic version of this. And it would have received great reviews. You'll probably never see it. That's reality though."
Sci-Fi Movie Page review:
http://www.scifimoviepage.com/fantastic ... ie-review/
"...it may even be worse than we feared for how much better it could have been. Fantastic Four is the Magnificent Ambersons of superhero movies: a sad example of huge potential ruthlessly trampled by a studio system run wild."
New Yorker review ("Fantastic Four Should Have Been Great"):
http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultur ... been-great
It isn’t a surprise that a director should endure a large measure of supervisory control on a production that costs two hundred million dollars, as “Fantastic Four” did. But studio supervision, a useful form of quality control on mediocre filmmakers, risks diluting the distinctive qualities of unusually gifted filmmakers such as Trank, regressing to the mean without fulfilling the norm. Thus, because of studio interference, “Fantastic Four,” for all its formidable merits, has become both a critical flop and a commercial disaster.
Le Chiffre
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Re: "Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

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I liked the Saturday morning cartoon when I was a kid, and I was looking forward to taking some kids to see this, but I probably won't bother now, unless I get in the mood for a good car wreck. The paradox is that there may be no better example this year of how the "auteur theory" is still alive and well. The New York Daily News estimated today that the director's disowning of the film may have cost it at least 5 to 10 million at the box office, or in other words maybe about a third of it's opening weekend gross.
Wellesnet
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Re: "Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

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With "Captain Marvel" on the verge of breaking $1 billion at the worldwide box office, and "Avengers: Endgame" predicted to break $2 billion, the comic book superhero genre, and Marvel Studio more specifically, is the undisputed driving force in Hollywood these days.

Here's an interesting article from 2006 exploring Orson Welles's interest, and relationship to the world of comic books and comic strips:
A TOUCH OF WELLES: Orson Welles, American comic books and pop culture.
https://stevenbrowerwritings.wordpress. ... p-culture/
"Citizen Kane represented, more than any other movie Joe had ever seen, the total blending of narration and image that was. . . . the fundamental principle of comic book story telling. . . . Without the witty, potent dialog and the puzzling shape of the story, the movie would have merely been an American version of the kind of brooding, shadow-filled Ufa-style expressionist stuff that Joe had grown up watching in Prague. Without the brooding shadows and bold adventurings of the camera, without the theatrical lighting and queasy angles, it would have been merely a clever movie about a rich bastard. It was more, much more, than any movie really needed to be. In this one crucial regard—its inextricable braiding of image and narrative—Citizen Kane was like a comic book. ”
Here's an earlier thread focusing on Welles's appearance in an issue of the Superman comic book, back in 1950:
http://wellesnet.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.p ... t=superman
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Re: "Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

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Opera Meets Film: Finding Similarities In The Marvel Cinematic Universe & Wagner’s Ring
http://operawire.com/opera-meets-film-f ... ners-ring/

“Opera Meets Film” is a feature dedicated to exploring the way that opera has been employed in cinema. We will select a section or a film in its entirety, highlighting the impact that utilizing the operatic form or sections from an opera can alter our perception of a film that we are viewing. This week’s installment will take a look at the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

It’s the summer season, which means that we are seeing a ton of major Hollywood blockbusters. A month ago, the world got a chance to see “Avengers: Infinity Wars,” the latest installment in Marvel’s epic cinematic universe.

To call the “Avengers” movies operatic is the ultimate understatement. As noted in our piece on “Mad Max: Fury Road,” the action movie is essentially operatic in nature with larger-than-life characters exploring equally titanic emotions and potent themes of good and evil, among many other things. The “Avengers” films might be the pop culture apex of operatic film, each movie seemingly upping the ante and seeking out a bigger stage on which to explore its emotions.

Wagner & Marvel

In some ways, the Marvel Cinematic Universe is the cinematic equivalent of opera’s magnus opus – Wagner’s “Der Ring des Nibelungen.” Now let’s get something clear – this won’t be an article about some villain trying to get an all-power piece of jewelry. We could go there, but it doesn’t add much to the more insightful connections between these universes. Where Wagner sought to tell a massive story of a massive universe across four operas, the MCU has done that, to this point, across 17 movies (though in one year, that total will equal 20 films). What is more interesting is the connections that these stories show to one another in the context of Wagner’s “Ring.”

One notable feature in Wagner’s “Ring” is how the narrative is repeated time and again. While some might feel it pads the story, what it also does that makes it unique is that we see different characters relate the narrative. Wotan tells us the story of “Das Rheingold” and beyond in “Die Walküre,” for example, and other characters fill in other gaps throughout the following episodes of the saga, including the Norns, Mime, the Wanderer, and Waltraute, among others. More than reminding the audience of what happened before, it allows audiences to get a different perspective on the same story, allowing for a richer storytelling experience with new insights.

Now let’s turn to the MCU, where the movies continually backtrack to major events that have taken place. The big battle of New York in “The Avengers” is constantly brought up again in other films, including “Spider-Man: Homecoming,” “The Avengers: Age of Ultron,” and “Captain America: Civil War,” among others. Each time we hear of the stories we see a new insight on its impact. In “Spider-Man” we see how the battle left some construction workers out of business and transformed them into arms dealers. In “Civil War” we see how the government reacts to the battle of New York and following the battle of Sokovia to attempt new directions on its policy toward superheroes.

It all adds layers to the storytelling, maximizing the ability to interact with the characters in the saga, much the way we experience Wagner’s own operatic universe in the “Ring,” (and even beyond if we look at the connections between “Lohengrin” and “Parsifal” or even sister operas like “Parsifal” and “Tristan und Isolde” with their inter-related philosophies).

First of their Kind


One final note. Wagner’s “Ring” and his oeuvre at large was the first of its kind. While other great composers found thematic connections between their works (Mozart added a cheeky reminder of “Nozze” in “Don Giovanni” and Verdi’s “Falstaff” made joking references to his other work), none made the leap to such a potent level as the master of Bayreuth. His leitmotifs (a subject of a previous installment here) themselves weave in and out of operas, even when the relationships seem tenuous. For example, at the apex of Isolde’s “Liebestod,” we hear a brief moment from Wotan’s “Abschied” from “Die Walküre” and “Die Meistersinger” brings forth a brief quote from “Tristan.”

The same goes for the MCU. While sequels have been in order for ages throughout the history of cinema (and the “Star Wars” universe was expanded by differing media), no company had attempted to interconnect films in the parallel manner that Marvel has. And while the quality may vary and many will never hold them up in cinematic terms the way Wagner’s works are held up in operatic terms, there is no denying the magnitude and importance of the experiment to the potential of how stories can be told in cinematic form.
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Re: "Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

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Five critics discuss the Marvel phenomenon.
NYT on how "Avengers Endgame Has Taken Over the World":
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... s.amp.html

A.O . SCOTT
There’s an element of these movies that is basically a workplace sitcom. It’s about a bunch of people who — whatever their different temperaments and personalities — all have to get along and work together. And a lot of the conflicts in these movies are kind of personnel and H.R. issues as much as they are battles against cosmic evil.

MANOHLA DARGIS
I think that’s true. They’re also successors to the western. It’s a group of people, whether they’re in a wagon circle or not, who come together and fight some enemy. And now, the frontier, as “Star Trek” told us so long ago, is out there. But I miss horses. There is a really awesome horse in this. I would have watched that rider and that horse for an hour.

A Franchise at War

SCOTT
“Avengers,” in a way, depoliticizes the old comic book series, and blunts some of the interesting psychological and existential aspects of the characters. Take Spider-Man in the Sam Raimi movies — it’s a really interesting character study, and it’s asking, how would it feel, in the middle of adolescence, to undergo this? Those movies felt tethered to reality in a way. Once the military-industrial-Avengers complex took over with “Iron Man,” then a lot of that interesting texture and politics and psychology gets smoothed over, and we get a much more streamlined and carefully blunted corporate product.

DARGIS
Think about who Iron Man is, though. This billionaire industrialist ingenious inventor — in weapons manufacturing. This has been the lead Avenger. That says a lot.

BUCHANAN
I do hasten to point out that Captain America could have been an always-side-with-might character, but in most of his movies he questions his orders and, in “Captain America: The Winter Soldier,” dismantles the idea of pre-emptive war.

DARGIS
The United States has been at war how many years now? And we’ve had these long-running movies that are just war movies, again and again. Yes, they are overtly depoliticized, but they certainly are political in another way. Each movie’s a justification of war.

HARRIS
To quote Donald Glover, “This is America.” I wonder if there’s a way to look at these superhero movies as an extension of the many ’90s action movies that were about intelligence and spies and anything that starred Harrison Ford or Nic Cage. Or even the ’80s when we had Schwarzenegger and Bruce Willis. There’s always been militaristic aspects in the way Hollywood makes action movies. This is just beefed up with sci-fi and fantasy elements

SCOTT
These movies have always been about war, about combat, and about conflict. And it’s always interesting to ask who is fighting and in what cause, and how does that map onto whatever’s happening in the world? What this “Avengers” proved itself to be is an allegory of the global elite — this is the Davos class. These are people who kind of regard themselves as superheroic, tech billionaires. They’re our rulers and we’re their fans.

SCOTT
The ethic and the aesthetic is fundamentally authoritarian. There’s an interesting historical correlation in the rise of these movies — which are within their worlds fundamentally uninterested in anything democratic, that promote a super-elite Ayn Randian idea of what authority and heroism looks like — and the rise in the real world of anti-democratic authoritarian politics.

MORRIS
Right. “Iron Man” had a simultaneously radical idea and an appalling one. That movie begins in the caves of Afghanistan. His company, Stark Industries, is responsible for making weapons for that war. That’s a very specific moment in world events.

SCOTT
And the arc of those movies is also a way toward this idea that we need to privatize wars.

DARGIS
He’s a billionaire who can save us. Does that sound familiar to anybody else?

MORRIS
All of those Chuck Norrises and Stallones and even Bruce Willis, all of those guys were working people who either came out of actual American conflict or actual working jobs and found themselves — either through convoluted screenwriting or very convincing social and political circumstances — embroiled in what we would call an action movie.

SCOTT
And a struggle against power. Whereas these movies are more and more on the side of the power. The character in the recent Avengers movie who is most like what you just described is Erik Killmonger. And the politics of what happens in “Black Panther,” which I think is best of the class, are fascinating because it villainizes and stigmatizes Killmonger. His death is tragic, but it’s necessary so that the energy of that radical struggle can be reabsorbed into this technocratic monarchy, which is Wakanda. And it’s interesting that Killmonger is identified with Oakland and Wakanda is basically the Silicon Valley of Africa.

BUCHANAN
If I had a major bone to pick aesthetically with the Marvel movies, it's that very few of them reach for the exciting frames and colors of a James Gunn “Guardians of the Galaxy” movie. During the climax of “Infinity War," Thanos does his fatal snap on the most anonymous stretch of grass in Wakanda. I would have killed for that to be an interesting frame.

DARGIS
That’s the other problem with these movies: the filmmaking. The filmmaking often does not rise to my level of interest. I liked “Doctor Strange" because it’s fun and trippy

The True Legacy of ‘Avengers’


DARGIS
This is the Disney-fication of the movie industry. Marvel, with Pixar and Lucasfilm, has helped Disney start to swallow the rest of the industry. 2008, the first “Iron Man” movie opens, Disney has 10.5 percent of the domestic box office. It’s at 26 percent last year. They are just eating everything. Disney conquered childhood and has now managed to conquer adulthood.

SCOTT
The one wild card, maybe, in this deck, is popular taste. In spite of all of the best efforts of movie studios and Walt Disney and other corporations, they’ve never quite been able to control it or predict it. It’s not inconceivable that at some point, too soon for the interests of Disney and Marvel, people will start getting interested in something else.

BUCHANAN
I think this is a genre that is here to stay, in part because there are so many other routes to go within the superhero framework — it’s a pretty flexible genre. Whether you’re O.K. with that is up to personal preference, but when Marvel hires a director like Chloé Zhao, who made the wonderful “The Rider,” for “The Eternals,” I have hopes that she can do something fascinating with it.

MORRIS
It’s been interesting to watch superhero comic-book movies, as a genre, evolve in terms of who all it brought into its world. In 20 years, these movies have managed to do more interesting stuff along those lines than 20 years of any other genre, I would say. They have managed to at least open to other executives the possibilities of what it would mean to have an entirely black-oriented movie — and I don’t mean just black people in it, but blackness as the core theme of the movie itself. Setting aside that gratuitous shot of those women in “Endgame,” nobody financially seems to have a problem with women doing two hours of superhero work in a movie.

HARRIS
Within the next 10 years the entire universe will be rebooted again. I can see a world where there is a new Captain America, but Chris Evans, even though he’s now 80 years old, will come back to help Anthony Mackie or whoever is now the new Captain America learn to take his place. We are going to see the same thing over and over again. I don’t think it’s the end — nothing ever really goes away anymore.
Le Chiffre
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Re: "Fantastic Four" gets Ambersoned

Post by Le Chiffre »

BUCHANAN
If I had a major bone to pick aesthetically with the Marvel movies, it's that very few of them reach for the exciting frames and colors of a James Gunn “Guardians of the Galaxy” movie. During the climax of “Infinity War," Thanos does his fatal snap on the most anonymous stretch of grass in Wakanda. I would have killed for that to be an interesting frame.

DARGIS
That’s the other problem with these movies: the filmmaking. The filmmaking often does not rise to my level of interest. I liked “Doctor Strange" because it’s fun and trippy

DARGIS
This is the Disney-fication of the movie industry. Marvel, with Pixar and Lucasfilm, has helped Disney start to swallow the rest of the industry. 2008, the first “Iron Man” movie opens, Disney has 10.5 percent of the domestic box office. It’s at 26 percent last year. They are just eating everything. Disney conquered childhood and has now managed to conquer adulthood.

SCOTT
The one wild card, maybe, in this deck, is popular taste. In spite of all of the best efforts of movie studios and Walt Disney and other corporations, they’ve never quite been able to control it or predict it. It’s not inconceivable that at some point, too soon for the interests of Disney and Marvel, people will start getting interested in something else.
"I would love to have a mass audience. You're looking at a man who's been looking for a mass audience for ages, and if I had one I'd be obliged." - Orson Welles, Filming The TriaL

John Landis: "My own experience with Orson was wonderful. One moment I remember very well was when a person we were eating with made a comment about the difficulties we were having raising money. He said "It's so absurd. A great artist like you, Mr. Welles; it's outrageous that people aren't giving you the money because you don't have big commercial success. It's so stupid." The guy went on in that vein, and Orson rose himself up - which is pretty scary - and basically said he would give anything for a commercial success, and that the only important thing was commercial success. I remember going, "Well, that's not entirely true", and he said, "That's entirely true. I mean, why do you create? You make things for people to see. Commercial success is real proof of communication."

Funny article by someone going into Endgame cold:
A Thorough Review of Avengers: Endgame By Someone Who Absolutely Knew What Was Going On the Whole Time:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/themuse.je ... 594080/amp
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Scorsese on Marvel

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Martin Scorsese on why the Marvel films are not "cinema":
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/opin ... J1KMs8AT6Y
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