'Black Magic' - slightly different edit?

Eve · Post by **Eve** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:37 pm

Picking up my question from the Locarno Wrap Up-thread, I'd like to inquire if anyone has made the experience that possibly there could be two (extremely slightly different) edits of 'Black Magic'.
I am aware of the fact that 'Black Magic' isn't held in high esteem ... yet I still think that it is justified to try to make an albeit small commentary.

So far I was lucky enough to have seen the film only once at a screening - in Locarno. A title card identified it as a print from the Library of Congress (105 min.). The only other source I can judge from is a bootleg DVD of considerable horrible quality (also 105 min.).
The only hint that there could be two edits is based upon my (hopefully not wrong) remembrance of the LoC-print omitting at least one of two scenes between Welles and Tamiroff sitting at a table with Welles doing magic tricks and explaining Tamiroff the next steps he will take and another scene (2.) where I believe a few lines were cut in the LoC-print. If my memory is incorrect (and I fear it is, which means that I am not even sure if my recollections below are accurate), I apologize for bringing up a non-existent issue.

In the following I'd like to point out - in a pretty rough way - some differences I imagined I did notice/noticed when watching the LoC-print. Compared to the DVD there are at least six places with additional scenes, maybe even a whole scene is placed differently (with additional material). On the other hand (as mentioned above) maybe only one scene and some lines of dialogue were omitted.

1. scene where Joseph is tortured by the men of de Montagne
the LoC-print has additional shots of the gypsies before they rescue Joseph

2. Inn. as de Montagne presents his 'patient' to Cagliostro
as the scenes with Lorenza's recounting her story to Cagliostro end, c: to Cagliostro sitting at her bedside; the LoC-print omitts Cagliostro asking Lorenza further questions, it proceeds somewhat promptly with Gitano entering the room

3. Inn. when de Montagne leaves the room as Gilbert arrives
in the LoC-print there are additional shots of Cagliostro (a great one near the stairs) alone, and with Gitano when they carry Lorenza to their carriage.

4. Paris. scene after the first 'visit' of Gilbert at Cagliostro's house
the LoC-print has additional shots of Cagliostro walking through several rooms, reaching Lorenzas bed, c: Cagliostro sitting alone for quite a while before Lorenza approaches (at that point the DVD-v sets in)

5. scene in bedroom
in the LoC-print there is an additional scene which I am unfortunately unable to place somewhere (I guess it must have been between the scene of Mme. du Barry's and de Montagne's first visit to Cagliostro and the scene at the court):
Gilbert has finally achieved to see Lorenza, they are seen in her bedroom, embracing and kissing, Cagliostro eavesdropping at the door, entering the room, where he confronts them and hypnotizes Lorenza so that she won't leave, Gilbert puzzled at her change, leaves alone. After he has left the room, Cagliostro sits down at the bedside with an expression on his face that leaves little doubt to his intentions ...
in the DVD-v this scene is missing, yet I suspect that some shots of Gilbert and Lorenza were incorporated later in the DVD-v in the scene when Gilbert tries a second time to abduct Lorenza.
In the DVD-v this scene is placed after the court-scene and the one between Mme. du Barry, de Montagne, Cagliostro and the jeweler. Gilbert is shown using force when entering Cagliostro's house, goes to Lorenza - with probably the same shots as in the LoC-print 'described' above - and Zoraida is seen eavesdropping.
I can't remember whether the LoC-print did include this scene.

6. 'first' scene between Cagliostro and Gitano at a table
I don't remember whether this scene was also present in the LoC-print.
In the DVD-v this scene is placed between the death of the king and the scene in Cagliostro's house where de Montagne tries to take Lorenza away.

7. scene in Lorenza's bedroom as de Montagne wants to take Lorenza away
I think that the LoC-print did include a shot of Cagliostro standing at her bedside before de Montagne appears.
In the DVD-v there is cut from the scene between de Montagne and his men fighting downstairs, to de Montagne as he enters Lorenza's bedroom

8. scene at Lorenza's grave
(once again I'm not sure): I think in the LoC-print there's a bit of additional dialogue before Cagliostro's line "Wake up, Lorenza" between him and Gitano. Also I thought that the ending was different (also with more dialogue in the LoC-print). The DVD-v 'ending': (Gitano) Leave her there, leave her (Cagliostro) No, no (Gitano) Leave her there (Cagliostro) No ...

9. 'second' scene between Cagliostro and Gitano at the table
I'm quite sure that this scene is missing in the LoC-print.
In the DVD-v it is placed exactly after the scene at Lorenza's grave and before the cut to de Montagne receiving the fake letter (and Dumas Sr narration: "And so through his love to one woman and his hate for one man ...")

I apologize for this bad attempt ... nevertheless I hope somebody wants to clarify the situation ...

catbuglah · Post by **catbuglah** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:04 pm

Just received an ebay bootleg of Black Magic -

- Visually and esthetically, I find this film rather splendid indeed - Looks to me like the maestro did the lion's share of the directing - The Wellesian stamp seems pretty pervasive throughout - A plentiful potpourri of creatively dazzling shots -I'd give this an initial Orson Auteur Equation of 55. Pretty germanic - the look seems to fits well within the late 40's early 50's style of the Stranger, Macbeth, Othello. Unfortunately, I feel the weakness here is the script, I don't know how much of Dumas is in this, but compared to Jane Eyre and Treasure Island, not strong. Certainly a movie I'd love to have a good print of, nonetheless. This one's not really watchable

The über Welles scenes that stood out for me :
1- The torture scene
2- There's a scene where Welles first realizes his healing powers and there's a chandelier framed so as to give him a halo.
3-Some dizzying wide-angle stairway shots when he starts to mingle with the French aristocracy.
4-The fall-from-building swordfight (Comparable to Journey into Mystery, The Stranger)
5-Several freaky impressionistic shots related to hypnotism (Exteme closeup of eyes, etc...) :p

Eve · Post by **Eve** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:58 am

catbuglah - please forgive me my curiosity, but did you notice anything corresponding to my remembrance of the LoC-print, or does your DVD seem to be identical with the DVD-version I tried to describe (two scenes between Cagliostro and Gitano, ...)?
I think that not so long ago there were two sources on ebay for that film, so maybe ...

catbuglah · Post by **catbuglah** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:28 pm

Unfortunately I don't have your remarkable capacity to remember film scenes :O I do remember that my copy has scene#9 - For the rest, I'll be happy

to verify - will get back in a few days time...

catbuglah · Post by **catbuglah** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:42 pm

Hi Eve - I checked everything out - My DVD seems identical to yours - no Locarno scenes noticed - Just one little thing - ??? In scene 7, I have a quick shot of Orson hiding behind curtains between the scene between de Montagne and his men fighting downstairs, to de Montagne as he enters Lorenza's bedroom. That Locarno print sounds rather better than this one. :;):

Eve · Post by **Eve** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:42 am

Hi catbuglah - thanks! The shot you mentioned is present in my DVD-version as well (there's no preparation to that cut and at least to me it comes somewhat unpleasantly abrupt, doesn't it?) - so our DVDs have to be identical.
You are absolutely right, the LoC-print leaves an entirely better impression of the film ... I was really 'knocked out' when leaving the theatre because it was such a good print and although they surely can't make up fully for the screenplay's weakness, the additional scenes and shots were indeed an improvement since in my opinion they smooth the sometimes quite harsh editing and - the Cagliostro-Lorenza relationship is further developed ...
I hope it will finally turn up somewhere! When watching it in Locarno I first had the suspicion that the DVD was simply a 'cut-down' edit (although I can't imagine why the cuts were placed exactly there) - but than I was surprised to see that #9 was missing and #2 shortened ... and that the running time was identical!? However 'both versions' (?) seem to have emerged in the U.S. ...
I'm looking forward to receive a VHS-cassette of the film in the next weeks, maybe this one corresponds to the LoC-print.

catbuglah · Post by **catbuglah** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:34 pm

I'm looking forward to receive a VHS-cassette of the film in the next weeks, maybe this one corresponds to the LoC-print.

Good luck! - That would be nice...

I thought the NY Times gave a fairly decent review :;):
http://movies2.nytimes.com/gst/movies/movie.html?v_id=5897

There's this nice website, as well, for the literary sources ??? of the story :
http://www.cadytech.com/dumas/related/authors_digest_reference.php

catbuglah · Post by **catbuglah** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:25 pm

Editing tidbit -

Orson Welles, Leaming, p.352

But Orson had his way, and on November 25, 1947, Republic dispatched to Rome the unfinished footage and the cutter who had been diligently working on it (Macbeth). Not until March 6, 1948, did the cutter return from what was to have been a short stay in Italy. To make matters worse, Republic heard that, having gone to Rome expressly to finish the film with Orson, the cutter had spent part of his time there working on Cagliostro!

dmolson · Post by **dmolson** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 2:53 am

It just so happens I've been wasting my time reading the thoroughly bad Charles Higham bio these days and came across his description of Welles and Cagliostro, which "fell apart completely in the clumsy hands of Gregory Ratoff"... it seems Higham's research didn't give an inkling that Welles actively worked the sidelines and the script, going even to describe the filming as "more embarrassing and amateurish every day."

Again, Mr. Higham has shown us the light! LOL

catbuglah · Post by **catbuglah** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:23 pm

Films with Welles
Films featuring Welles as actor were reliably, and sometimes even surprisingly popular with fest-goers. Jane Eyre received some of the warmest applause of any film, as did Black Magic, which even garnered approving cheers from some quarters.

Locarno report

Eve · Post by **Eve** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:56 am

Thanks to Store Hadji
for shedding light on a question raised by myself in that thread!
the version of the VHS-release of "Black Magic" is identical with the one of the bootleg DVDs that are sold on ebay -

Terry · Post by **Terry** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:20 pm

So there's still an alternate (European?) version out there somewhere - the one that was shown at Locarno.