Callow Vol. III "One Man Band"

[Wich2]

No, I did not say that those dots necessarily needed to be connected. I meant just what I wrote:

From the talks I had with Arthur, and the talks I've seen/heard/read from Orson, the two men had different sensibilities. (For one example, Arthur was a life-long, very active, Episcopal churchman.) So, as I said before, Arthur "didn't broach (the) topic" under discussion here.

I do know, after 40 years in the business, that many artists' sexual lives are complicated; and I do know that what might be called, "sexual mentoring" over age gaps is not unheard of. But what either of these two men did or did not do in this area, I do not personally know.

And I assume no one else here knows, either.

-Craig

[nickleschichoney]

I do know, after 40 years in the business, that many artists' sexual lives are complicated; and I do know that what might be called, "sexual mentoring" over age gaps is not unheard of. But what either of these two men did or did not do in this area, I do not personally know. And I assume no one else here knows, either.

So why should Callow say that Welles "probably put on signals" to get the attention of older men? That's not only something he shouldn't be able to know of, but also a disgusting thing to say about anyone: "You got touched when you were 15 because you brought it on yourself. You asked for it. You wanted it."

Do I have to spell out how wrong this is?

[Wich2]

Do I have to spell out how wrong this is?

???!!!

Have you read anyone in this thread DEFENDING such behavior?

However, REPORTING it as existing in the world, and as not being impossible in this case, is a sign of honesty, not approbation.

-Craig

[nickleschichoney]

Have you read anyone in this thread DEFENDING such behavior? However, REPORTING it as existing in the world, and as not being impossible in this case, is a sign of honesty, not approbation.

Craig, I didn't accuse you of defending pederasty. What's irking me is your inability to admit that what Callow said about the teenage Welles is incredibly disturbing.

[Wich2]

Did it happen? I don't know.

If it did happen, do I salute it? No.

Was it a cardinal sin for Callow to just posit it as possible, considering all circumstances? I don't think so.

(This is beginning to remind me of some recent debates about Spencer Tracy... Tracy had a fractured marriage, disappeared from town for days on end of drunken miasma, lived for a while on George Cukor's property, and maintained his longest relationship with a woman now known to have been more lesbian that straight. And yet, when some ponder if Spence may have been less than perfectly straight himself - OH, THE HORROR!)

By the way, I have no dog in this hunt; I am a straight man advocating for nothing other than openness and truth. You are free to feel irked, if there's some profit in that for you.

Beyond that, I give up.

-Craig

[nickleschichoney]

Was it a cardinal sin for Callow to just posit it as possible, considering all circumstances? I don't think so.

He doesn't just posit it as possible. He explicitly says that Welles "must have put on signals". That's disturbing. Even if Callow were just considering it as a possibility, that would still be disturbing.

(This is beginning to remind me of some recent debates about Spencer Tracy... Tracy had a fractured marriage, disappeared from town for days on end of drunken miasma, lived for a while on George Cukor's property, and maintained his longest relationship with a woman now known to have been more lesbian that straight. And yet, when some ponder if Spence may have been less than perfectly straight himself - OH, THE HORROR!)

THESE CASES ARE NOT SIMILAR. Wondering or downright asserting that Spencer Tracy was gay or bi is fine, if you have reason to think he might have been. Just so, wondering or downright asserting that Orson Welles was gay or bi is fine, if you have reason to think he might have been. What's not fine is speculating that the teenage Orson Welles asked for all those creepy pederasts to give him their attention, ESPECIALLY if you have no reason to think so. Even if you assert that either Welles or Tracy were gay/bi without evidence, that would still be better than asserting that Welles sought pederasts' attention.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for you: Callow is not simply questioning someone's sexuality; he is also putting blame on a victim of pederasts' advances without good reason to do so.

By the way, I have no dog in this hunt; I am a straight man advocating for nothing other than openness and truth. You are free to feel irked, if there's some profit in that for you.

Don't talk down to me. Don't talk as if I'm some idiotic, fanboyish admirer of Welles. I don't have a dog in this hunt at all. What Callow said is obviously disturbing and you're not acknowledging that. Moreover, you have the audacity to say you're doing it as "a straight man advocating for nothing other than openness and truth." That's what I'm irked about.

[Wich2]

"Nickles" (?) -

There is no need, and no call, to personally attack me.

For the record, I have known the effects of true pedophilia close to me. It is a wretched thing, and nothing - NOTHING - I have written here says otherwise.

BUT-

What we are discussing here is not elderly men abusing little children.

What we are discussing here, is the possibility that a specific young male might have had some level of sexual involvement with somewhat older males who mentored him. And we are talking about a male who always seemed older than his age, who was considered very attractive, and who did not lead a conventional, strait-laced life. A male who, elsewhere on this very board, has been said by someone who knew the parties involved, to have had some level of later gay experience.

I knew of similar circumstances among students and teachers (both gay, and straight) in my later school years. And though I don't find those admirable, and though in some states they might have been illegal - they were consensual.

I see no crime in Callow - or anyone else - wondering if such a thing might have happened here.

-Craig

[nickleschichoney]

Yeah, I don't have any response to that.

[nickleschichoney]

OK, so it turns out I do:

What we are discussing here is not elderly men abusing little children. What we are discussing here, is the possibility that a specific young male might have had some level of sexual involvement with somewhat older males who mentored him. And we are talking about a male who always seemed older than his age, who was considered very attractive, and who did not lead a conventional, strait-laced life. A male who, elsewhere on this very board, has been said by someone who knew the parties involved, to have had some level of later gay experience.

Once again: He was still underage. Oh, and by the way, even if men are going after adolescents and not little children, it's still pederasty. Don't give me the idea that he "looked older than he was" or that he "led an unconventional life later". Don't you dare defend the creeps who went after him like that. That's disgusting.

I see no crime in Callow - or anyone else - wondering if such a thing might have happened here.

Once again: Callow says Welles MUST HAVE put out certain signals. Not "might". "Must". Read the goddamned book you're defending.

I knew of similar circumstances among students and teachers (both gay, and straight) in my later school years. And though I don't find those admirable, and though in some states they might have been illegal - they were consensual.

And with this statement, you've confirmed several suspicions of mine.