WELLESNET MESSAGE BOARD

Hello fellow Welles fans,

I had two questions I wanted to ask some of the experts who frequent this board.

1. While scanning through the TV-Now Orson Welles schedule (http://www.tv-now.com/stars/welles.html), I came across a listing for an episode of Sightings that will be on later this month that lists among the episode's topics: "a possible curse that affected Orson Welles' career." Does anybody know what this might be? Did some strange occurance happen to Welles (while down in Brazil perhaps?) that might have 'cursed' his career?

2. I beleive I read somewhere on these boards about a book will soon be published (in another language) that deals with Welles' possible involvement in a muder. Does anybody here have any information they can share about this unusual story?

Intriguing subjects, as strange as they may be. Thanks.

Best Regards,
Dylan

Dylan:

I think in one of the sketchbooks he talks about the Brazilian curse; it's also excerpted at the beginning of "It's All True" (the 1992 release). You have it: it's a voodoo needle put through the script of "It's All True" allegedly because RKO cancelled the filming of the ceremony, and the witch doctors had "bought new costumes". Probably an apocryphal tale made up by Welles himself, as he was known to "embroider" . The other thing is a delicate topic round these parts as I believe Jeff "locked" discussion on this story last year; so all I can safely say is for you to look up "the case of the black Dahlia/ Welles", and you will probably find what you need, strange as it is.

Both topics are, essentially, bullshit to anyone thinking rationally. If people want to discuss further, be my guest. The previous discussion on the Black Dahlia murder got off topic and out of hand, but if people want to discuss it, go ahead.



Edited By Jeff Wilson on Feb. 17 2003 at 00:04

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dylan, a woman saw some publicity pictures of lady from shanghai and was sure that the way the black dahlia was cut up was how welles had painted some props in lady from shanghai funhouse set. the truth is that there are old macabre sketches of deamons that look the way the black dahlia was carved up. it's like saying welles is responsible for arched ceilings because they are all over the last half of kane. the rumor came and went, no book that i ever heard of will be coming out.

when i read about it i did a little time comparison thing when deja was the welles place to go. now of course, this is the only, and best welles place to go. anyway, here is a link to my little time comaprison. surprised to have found it still floating around.

http://groups.google.com/groups?....num%3D1

it seems about the time dahlia was killed, welles was in beverly hills, dehydrated from filming in mexico, and with a swollen, infected eye from an insect bite.

Thanks for the replies.

Jeff, yeah, I don't buy these stories either (especially the murder). They were sort of intriguing when I read of them, simply because they were so out there (so much that I kind of rolled my eyes upon reading of each)...I knew that they were just rumors, but as bizarre as they were, I wanted to know if other Welles fans knew more. Thanks again guys.

Best Regards,
Dylan

Dylan, I probably came off as too blunt in my dismissal of the two stories you mention. If you want to find out more about the Black Dahlia deal, the author had a web site at something like bethshort.com, where she laid out her loony detective work. What's sadder is testimonials on the site from people who swallowed her tale. Her book was indeed published, although it was from a very small publishing house, and I've never seen a copy.

Jeff,

Yeah, I did a little light reading on a website (before I posted my previous message), and I didn't read for too long. It does seem like, as you did put it, complete bullshit, and the 'facts' against Welles all seem irrelevent to the murder (at least to me). One non-Welles fan on a site I came across said something like "I think he did it, it sounds like something someone as arrogant as Welles would do"...that angered me, but people who say that really don't know anything about Welles. I think we can close this topic, as my curiousity with such rubbish was fulfilled. Take care guys.

Dylan

Although Welles personally dressed the fun house set in "Shanghai" which features the body parts, there is clearly no evidence at all that Welles was the "Black Dahlia" killer; however, reading about this wacky theory at Salon set off a strange reverberation in my mind, something about Welles and women. I think a more profitable theme to explore would be Welles' attitudes towards women as revealed in his work and in his life.

For example, how are the women of Kane and Ambersons portrayed, stereotypically or in a fresh way? Both Mrs. Kanes left Charlie, and Lucy seems very independent; McBride has detailed how Aunt Fanny was laughed at until feminism came in in the 70's. Interestingly, we now know that Welles wrote the original script for Monseur Verdoux, called "Ladykillers". We can observe how Welles' characters treat women: Kane treats them as property, Kindler tries to murder his wife, O'Hara walks away from his dying girlfriend (played by Welles' then- wife), Macbeth is controlled by his wife, Othello murders his, Arkadin has a srange relationship with his daughter (played by Welles' wife), Quinlan fakes evidence to avenge his wife's murder, and he arranges a rape and drugging of a woman, Hastler clearly treats woman as objects, Falstaff seems healthy (!), Clay seems obsessed with youth and beauty, and Hanneford is a closet gay obsessed with his leading man, who sleeps with women to retain his macho image.

In addition, we could check Maurice Bessy's 1971 book on Welles, which has a small but powerful chapter on Welles' relations with the opposite sex. We could observe testimonials, for example Anne Baxter's, about how Welles pretty much attacked her, though she had a good-spirited response and recollection. We could read Welles' own statements, such as about (was it Gudrun Ure?) the actress temporarily on Othello, who did so much to hurt him in a short time, enough to pay him back for all that he had done to women in the past several years (the actual quote is in Bessy, I think.) Jeanne Moreau said that he was the only director , of all the director friends she knew, who actually encouraged her to direct. Dietrich, of course, famously said that when she had talked to him, she felt as though she were a plant that had been watered (and she was no shrinking violet.) And of course his numerous amorous affairs when he was both single and married; and finally his twenty year rather public affair with Oja Kodar, though you'll notice it was Paola who sat beside him at the 1975 AFI award dinner.

I think this is a fascinating theme to explore, but we must be careful: Welles warned against treating his work as autobiography (although his life and work positively beg for this connection to be drawn) and engaging in "dime-store pschyology". In fact Welles condemned most of the characters that he portrayed, and he did this uniqivocally in the Bazin book. So again, unless we want to fall into David Thomson territory, we must resist the urge to cheaply and superficially connect the the work with the private life.

I myself (in conjunction with another Welles-fan) have developed an entire mini-theory about the effect on Welles' work by Oja Kodar (she met him on the set of The Trial in '63, and they began their relationship in 1966). He himself said she had influenced his work, esp. in regards to sexuality on the screen, which was only subterranean prior to Oja. And let's remember that he renamed her (her real name is Olga Palinkas), and did a whole Kane thing with her in their projects together (we can see Welles' obsession with her in Fake, and her acting talents in that picture plus in The Dreamers and Jaded, the latter her own picture).

So we can conclude that no, he's probably not the Black Dahlia Killer, but his views towards and treatment of women changed and evolved over time, and were in some way reflected in his films.
There's a thesis ready to be written on this one, if it hasn't already been done!

Tony,

I don't have anything to add to your wonderfully lengthy commentary/observations on Welles' relationship and connection to women, except for that I found it to be a fascinating read. Orson was such a complex character, he had many sides to him, and each side is worthy of discussion. From what I've read, Welles did seem to have a peculiar sexuality, including his relationship to women, which is certainly worth exploring (All of my favorite directors had an intriguing or peculiar sexuality: Welles, Federico Fellini, David Lynch, Francois Truffaut, Hitchcock...it's an interesting subject to delve into when exploring the directors one loves so much, though unlike the others I listed, little has been written of this subject pretaining to Welles (relationship to women and sexuality...though I came across a bit once in Orson Welles: A Celebration, and a little bit more here and there...not as much as Tony laid out though). You made some vital statements, Tony, and I'd like to hear what other Welles fans have to say about this side of Orson.

Best Regards,
Dylan

tony:
super. i like those kinds of readings. gives you a window into the man. here is another window to add to the complex building we call orson:

the female type welles seemed most comfortable with is the sexuall woman involved in a sexless marriage. the young tart susan alexaner esconsed up in that rotting palace with the decrepit charles foster kane.

in ambersons, the considerably larger isabel, the crown jewel of the ambersons, retiring to the bedroom chamber with the mousy, considerably smaller wilbur minafer. right before they go in the bedroom we find out wilbur has been ill. We will hear no bells and whistles from that marriage bed.

Elsa binister married to the severly crippled Arthur banister. No sex there.

in fountain of youth, the mousey professor, and joi lansing in a relationship.

in touch of evil wellas was stuck with a star, heston, that the studio would not accept hidden under old age makeup, so he found an interior handicap that renders the same affect: vargas suffers from disinterest. His wife wants it, but he’d rather hang around with men poking his nose into their business instead of… well, you get the point. In the scene where vargas leaves the sanchez apartment, crossing the street to the blind ladie’s store, a woman with a baby in a carriage crosses vargas’ path, reminding him he’s supposed to be at the honeymoon hotel room, reproducing. What does vargas do at the sight of this woman with baby crossing his path, he puts on sunglasses, turns a blind eye to the symbol, and continues his way.

In the trial, lenny the centerfold nurse is involved with the sickly advocate. He’s so sick, he has to have his sex by proxy when lenny recounts to him her encounters with convicted men.

Falstaf and doll tearsheet. Enough said.

immortal story, mr clay, and the whore

Do I dare say it? Orson and Oja?

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interesting, that welles fell into his own mold, as he has on many of his other manias and preoccupations that he explored in his films. though in all fairness, oja had her own money, unlike susan alexander, elsa banister, and leni that were leeching off a wealthy old guys.

Jaime: I couldn't agree more; I just watched F for Fake again the other day for the first time in a long time, and what really struck me was the feeling that the picture rolls along very nicely as long as it's in the documentary mode, but as soon as the fib starts, i.e. Oja's story, then the wheels come off; the pace slackens, it becomes tedious, and Oja just can't act; it's sooo Kane/Arkadin/Clay; in particular the scene where Oja is running down the street in a semi-transparent blue gown, in SLOW-MOTION to the worst ickiest music imaginable; this rates as one of the two worst scenes in all Welles' work for me; it's embarrassing he wasn't embarrassed!

Love is Blind?

Tony, I am afraid I have to disagree, somewhat. I find the shots of Oja in F for Fake to rank among the most sublime testament's to the ageless beauty of the female form ever to be captured on celuloid. And we're not talking an art-school concept of beauty, here; we're talking the whole, very real thing, all the way from the feral to the ethereal. IMHO, at least.

My advice is to let that part of the film simmer with you for a good, long while - years, even. Then return to it. Such was my own encounter with this film, having seen it again recently - 25 years after my one and only previous viewing. Like a fine, fine wine, its bouquet had become far more robust with age and its substance had grown all the more satisfying.