I'd like to tap the WellesNet resources here...
For years I've read about the 20 minutes of footage Welles shot of "The Dreamers," based on the Isak Dinesen stories. The material was supposedly shot at Welles's house, if I recall correctly. Given this fact, I've always been curious if the footage was actually intended for the film, or were they tests, rehearsal footage, or scenes made in order to secure financing for the real film?
Perhaps someone who has seen excerpts from "One Man Band" can shed some light on this. Personally, I'd love to see the whole 20 minutes of material, but that goes without saying.
Thanks,
Peter
THE DREAMERS
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jaime marzol
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to the best of my understanding, from what oja kodar said in ONE MAN BAND, and from what i've read, welles filmed all the closeups, and was planning to film the wide shots when he got the money. kodar shows some of the storyboards in ONE MAN BAND
i have the screenplay, have not read it yet. would be great if it was the shooting script, not the shoppng script.
to the best of my understanding, from what oja kodar said in ONE MAN BAND, and from what i've read, welles filmed all the closeups, and was planning to film the wide shots when he got the money. kodar shows some of the storyboards in ONE MAN BAND
i have the screenplay, have not read it yet. would be great if it was the shooting script, not the shoppng script.
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ChristopherBanks
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jaime marzol
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i might have miss quoted. the shots in ONE MAN BAND would be like kodar against a trellis. when he cuts back there would be a castle room, the trellis in the scene, kodar against the trellis.
he could afford the trellis now.
later when he could afford the castle wall, he would have placed the trellis and kodar in front of the wall.
so it would not be close-ups, but medium shots. depending on the width of the trellis.
he supposedly filmed like that on don q. he travelled everywhere with a window frame that he would shoot through to tie up scenes, but i didn't see any of the in the copy of don q that i have.
i might have miss quoted. the shots in ONE MAN BAND would be like kodar against a trellis. when he cuts back there would be a castle room, the trellis in the scene, kodar against the trellis.
he could afford the trellis now.
later when he could afford the castle wall, he would have placed the trellis and kodar in front of the wall.
so it would not be close-ups, but medium shots. depending on the width of the trellis.
he supposedly filmed like that on don q. he travelled everywhere with a window frame that he would shoot through to tie up scenes, but i didn't see any of the in the copy of don q that i have.
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Peter Tonguette
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Thanks, Jaime. The shooting method you describe is, I think, a testament to how much of his films Welles carried around in his head... to shoot that way, in fragments over years, and yet have a finished film cut together is rather awe-inspiring. Of course, Welles did something similar on "Othello" and the film is more visually exciting than the glossiest of Hollywood productions.
Now I've just got to get my hands on "One Man Band" one of these days... (Showtime, are you listening?)
Regards,
Peter
Now I've just got to get my hands on "One Man Band" one of these days... (Showtime, are you listening?)
Regards,
Peter
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jaime marzol
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peter, he was quite amaizing that way. a lesser man would have thrown the towel in ages ago. ONE MAN BAND, and the graver documentary, WORKING WITH WELLES, are testaments to welles' genius when comfronted with obstacles. nothing was going to stop him from making films. his bizare shooting method in the few shots i've seen on OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, of shooting all around the hanniford character because he didn't know who the hanniford character was going to be yet, really worked in showing hanniford's issolation from his surroundings.
strasberg i think tells this story in graver docu:
welles is telling an actor to sway back and forth while he films him. the actor asks, "but orson, what's my motivation?" welles says, "4 years ago when i filmed your bottom half in spain there were 4 midgets pulling your legs."
pretty wild.
peter, he was quite amaizing that way. a lesser man would have thrown the towel in ages ago. ONE MAN BAND, and the graver documentary, WORKING WITH WELLES, are testaments to welles' genius when comfronted with obstacles. nothing was going to stop him from making films. his bizare shooting method in the few shots i've seen on OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, of shooting all around the hanniford character because he didn't know who the hanniford character was going to be yet, really worked in showing hanniford's issolation from his surroundings.
strasberg i think tells this story in graver docu:
welles is telling an actor to sway back and forth while he films him. the actor asks, "but orson, what's my motivation?" welles says, "4 years ago when i filmed your bottom half in spain there were 4 midgets pulling your legs."
pretty wild.
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fantomas
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there were three shootings for THE DREAMERS taking place in orson's house near hollywood boulevard: in september 1980 they shot pellegrina's farewell in the living room as well as a dialogue between pellegrina (oja kodar) and marcus cocoza (orson welles) in the garden and shots of the fountain in the garden and of the house. in april 1981 all the lines of marcus (orson welles in the mask as the old jew sitting in an armchair) are shot in 20 takes and in black and white. in august 1982 a new version of pellegrina's farewell was shot, this time without marcus in the picture (who changed his name from cocoza to kleek) - you only can hear his voice in the off. the first version of pellegrina's farewell as well as the second version are roughly edited by welles. without repetitions the material (orson's monologue and the two farewells) goes about 30 minutes.
it's one of the numerous legends that there would have been counter shots of a castle's room - in the existing editing such shots are not needed at all. the missing counter shots in the second pellegrina's farewell sequence ask for a close up or a medium shot of marcus or of the narrator.
i think they started as test shooting, then they prepared a poor man's version, and maybe it would have looked like one of welles's tv movies of the 50s. but obviously he worked on different projects in the last 3 years of his life and left THE DREAMERS untouched.
as far as i know the material will be shown in the orson welles conference which takes place in october in germany. they also announce the work print of THE DEEP, parts of TOSOTW and some unknown stuff.
let's hope that no californian law(yer) will stop it...
it's one of the numerous legends that there would have been counter shots of a castle's room - in the existing editing such shots are not needed at all. the missing counter shots in the second pellegrina's farewell sequence ask for a close up or a medium shot of marcus or of the narrator.
i think they started as test shooting, then they prepared a poor man's version, and maybe it would have looked like one of welles's tv movies of the 50s. but obviously he worked on different projects in the last 3 years of his life and left THE DREAMERS untouched.
as far as i know the material will be shown in the orson welles conference which takes place in october in germany. they also announce the work print of THE DEEP, parts of TOSOTW and some unknown stuff.
let's hope that no californian law(yer) will stop it...
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jaime marzol
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the castle wall is not a legend, it's in ONE MAN BAND.
kodar shows the storyboard welles drew of the scene - a full shot of a castle wall, and the pelegrina character is painted in there, on a bench by a trellis (if memory serves me right). that would have been the master shot, and he would cut in the medium shots that he was shooting presently.
would have been really cool if he had just photographed his artwork for the master shot, and moved on.
knowing his style, and prior work, it's hard to imagine that welles planned to make the whole film with medium shots, no depth, and no atmospheric castle shots.
that info you posted on THE DREAMERS is good. have any info on MERCHANT OF VENICE?
has anyome seen the Bravo documentary on Sheskespeare that uses MERCHANT OF VENICE footage?
the castle wall is not a legend, it's in ONE MAN BAND.
kodar shows the storyboard welles drew of the scene - a full shot of a castle wall, and the pelegrina character is painted in there, on a bench by a trellis (if memory serves me right). that would have been the master shot, and he would cut in the medium shots that he was shooting presently.
would have been really cool if he had just photographed his artwork for the master shot, and moved on.
knowing his style, and prior work, it's hard to imagine that welles planned to make the whole film with medium shots, no depth, and no atmospheric castle shots.
that info you posted on THE DREAMERS is good. have any info on MERCHANT OF VENICE?
has anyome seen the Bravo documentary on Sheskespeare that uses MERCHANT OF VENICE footage?
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fantomas
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jaime:
the sketches which are shown in ONE MAN BAND are sketches of a monastry where the monologue of marcus takes place. these settings are not meant to be used for pellegrina's farewell.
knowing the late fragments by orson like MOBY DICK ot tv movies like FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH it's very easy to imagine Orson doing a film without wide shots.
i believe that he started THE DREAMERS as a big project and then became aware that with no money he had to modify it.
of MERCHANT OF VENICE there is a fragment of 9 minutes in existence, a kind of work print with sound. the story goes that the film was completed but only once shown in a private screening. afterwards some reels were stolen (the specification which reels and how many reels varies in the different interviews Orson gave). the remaining 9 minutes are neither the beginning nor the ending of the film. later welles reshot the lost shylock monologue - in 16mm and without his mask and costume so that it cannot be combined with the fragment. it's said that in italy several reels of material are in the hands of a collector, but it's not clear if this are only outtakes without sound from the editing room or the stolen reels of the work print. in germany there is a 30 minutes film ORSON WELLES' SHYLOCK which compiles all the existing material of different versions which were done by welles for radio, tv and movies.
the sketches which are shown in ONE MAN BAND are sketches of a monastry where the monologue of marcus takes place. these settings are not meant to be used for pellegrina's farewell.
knowing the late fragments by orson like MOBY DICK ot tv movies like FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH it's very easy to imagine Orson doing a film without wide shots.
i believe that he started THE DREAMERS as a big project and then became aware that with no money he had to modify it.
of MERCHANT OF VENICE there is a fragment of 9 minutes in existence, a kind of work print with sound. the story goes that the film was completed but only once shown in a private screening. afterwards some reels were stolen (the specification which reels and how many reels varies in the different interviews Orson gave). the remaining 9 minutes are neither the beginning nor the ending of the film. later welles reshot the lost shylock monologue - in 16mm and without his mask and costume so that it cannot be combined with the fragment. it's said that in italy several reels of material are in the hands of a collector, but it's not clear if this are only outtakes without sound from the editing room or the stolen reels of the work print. in germany there is a 30 minutes film ORSON WELLES' SHYLOCK which compiles all the existing material of different versions which were done by welles for radio, tv and movies.
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Le Chiffre
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Good stuff, fantomas - thanks. I've read The Dreamers screenplay once and, although I probably need to read it again to make a competent judgement, I agree with your assessment that it started out as a pretty grandiose conception, which isn't really reflected by the rather modest looking snippets of film Welles shot (presented in One Man Band). I may be wrong, but the screenplay also reminded me a bit of Don Quixote with Oja's Pellagrina as a transgendered variation of DQ and Welles' Marcus Kleek character - who follows her constantly - having some echoes of Sancho Panza.
That's exciting news about the German Welles conference. Sounds like they've got a great lineup of unseen stuff. Why don't they ever do this in the U.S.? Bea and her lawyer? That's also good to hear some collector in Italy may have some more Merchant footage. If true, at least the footage still exists.
Jaime,
The documentary you're thinking of is also called "Shylock". It's a good hour-long program that traces the influence Shakespeare's Merchant has had on western civilization since it was written. It shows up on Bravo from time to time and yes, does have a couple of brief scenes from Welles' film.
That's exciting news about the German Welles conference. Sounds like they've got a great lineup of unseen stuff. Why don't they ever do this in the U.S.? Bea and her lawyer? That's also good to hear some collector in Italy may have some more Merchant footage. If true, at least the footage still exists.
Jaime,
The documentary you're thinking of is also called "Shylock". It's a good hour-long program that traces the influence Shakespeare's Merchant has had on western civilization since it was written. It shows up on Bravo from time to time and yes, does have a couple of brief scenes from Welles' film.
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fantomas
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mteal:
i like very much the screenplay of DREAMERS - but i never thought of DQ. it's really an interesting idea and worth to think about. Even the change of time is similar in DREAMERS and in DQ...
the program of the german welles conference can be found at cinemaquadrat.de , symposium, programm. oja kodar gave all the welles material of unfinished projects to the munich filmmuseum and they are busy in restoring it. so it seems to be much easier to see these unknown films in europe than in the US. i don't know but it can be that the legal situation is different otside the US...
ONE MAN BAND shows clips from projects which have been restored in the meantime. some are really great like LONDON (1968-71, 29 min), MOBY DICK (1971, 22 min), the SHYLOCK compilation (30 min) and FILMING THE TRIAL (1981, 82 min). it's impressive how orson worked with very limited means. i believe that he tried to do something with THE DREAMERS in the same way as he has done with MOBY DICK or THE GOLDEN HONEYMOON (1978, about 20 min) - both are reduced to pure story telling with very little additional effects.
i like very much the screenplay of DREAMERS - but i never thought of DQ. it's really an interesting idea and worth to think about. Even the change of time is similar in DREAMERS and in DQ...
the program of the german welles conference can be found at cinemaquadrat.de , symposium, programm. oja kodar gave all the welles material of unfinished projects to the munich filmmuseum and they are busy in restoring it. so it seems to be much easier to see these unknown films in europe than in the US. i don't know but it can be that the legal situation is different otside the US...
ONE MAN BAND shows clips from projects which have been restored in the meantime. some are really great like LONDON (1968-71, 29 min), MOBY DICK (1971, 22 min), the SHYLOCK compilation (30 min) and FILMING THE TRIAL (1981, 82 min). it's impressive how orson worked with very limited means. i believe that he tried to do something with THE DREAMERS in the same way as he has done with MOBY DICK or THE GOLDEN HONEYMOON (1978, about 20 min) - both are reduced to pure story telling with very little additional effects.
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jaime marzol
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monestary, castle wall; it was big and made out of stone, and i dodn't know anything about peligrina's farewell. i didn't even know she said farewell. yes, i can see how he probably started out with a bigger plan and slowly had to whittle it down to nothing but medium shots. it's such a shame.
would love to see filming the trial. i can picture the screening now, people exiting the theater and thomas white standing outside the door handing lawsuits to all who watched.
i think it was frank brady's book that said that it was the sound reel that was stolen from merchant of venice. the whole film is intact, but it has no sound. it also said welles was courting dissaster by storing the sound reel in the back seat of his car.
monestary, castle wall; it was big and made out of stone, and i dodn't know anything about peligrina's farewell. i didn't even know she said farewell. yes, i can see how he probably started out with a bigger plan and slowly had to whittle it down to nothing but medium shots. it's such a shame.
would love to see filming the trial. i can picture the screening now, people exiting the theater and thomas white standing outside the door handing lawsuits to all who watched.
i think it was frank brady's book that said that it was the sound reel that was stolen from merchant of venice. the whole film is intact, but it has no sound. it also said welles was courting dissaster by storing the sound reel in the back seat of his car.
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Harvey Chartrand
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fantomas
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harvey:
THE GOLDEN HONEYMOON is based on a story by ring lardner jr. and was filmed by welles in 1978. the 16mm fragment goes about 20 minutes and shows welles reading the story and characterizing the persons by changing his voice, gestures and facial expressions.
as far as i know there are several pieces with orson reading books or poems in front of gary graver's camera, like UNSUNG HEROES, THE SPIRIT OF CHARLES LINDBERGH or JEREMIAH, all done in the late 70s or early 80s.
i don't like jean marais as much as the old silent serials. never heard of a restoration of THE BEAUTY AND THE BEAST: is it now longer or different from the usual version?
THE GOLDEN HONEYMOON is based on a story by ring lardner jr. and was filmed by welles in 1978. the 16mm fragment goes about 20 minutes and shows welles reading the story and characterizing the persons by changing his voice, gestures and facial expressions.
as far as i know there are several pieces with orson reading books or poems in front of gary graver's camera, like UNSUNG HEROES, THE SPIRIT OF CHARLES LINDBERGH or JEREMIAH, all done in the late 70s or early 80s.
i don't like jean marais as much as the old silent serials. never heard of a restoration of THE BEAUTY AND THE BEAST: is it now longer or different from the usual version?
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Peter Tonguette
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fantomas, thanks for this info. on "The Dreamers" and "The Golden Honeymoon" (which, like others, I also had never heard of before.) I've never read the screenplay for "The Dreamers," but even if it began as a grandiose project, there's something to be said for the intimacy and small-scale nature of the later OW movies. I'm thinking particularly of "The Immortal Story" and "F for Fake."
He probably had good reasons for abandoning "The Dreamers" and moving onto other projects, but I'd take an OW "home movie" any day of the week. (FWIW, John Cassavettes shot a number of his films in and around his actual house.)
Peter
He probably had good reasons for abandoning "The Dreamers" and moving onto other projects, but I'd take an OW "home movie" any day of the week. (FWIW, John Cassavettes shot a number of his films in and around his actual house.)
Peter